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Posted by Mr. E from ? ( on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 at 12:49PM :

April 1, 2002 Monday

HEADLINE: Interview With Frank Lautenberg and Hussein Ibish

COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Alan Colmes. Can Sean
Hannity stand the fire from my fellow liberal Bill Press? Well he's
coming up next. And if you were force fed through a tube in your
stomach, would it violate your rights? What about the detainees in Cuba?

We'll debate that.

First, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has declared his own war
against terrorism, but has Israel gone too far in the name of national
security? Joining us now Hussein Ibish, Communication Director with the
American-Arab Anti Discrimination Committee and former New Jersey
Senator Frank Lautenberg with the Foundation for the Defense of
Democracies. Good to have you both with us. Senator, nice to see you.


COLMES: Many have made the analogy, Ariel Sharon has, with our war on
terror and Israel's war on terror.


COLMES: Do you see them as the same?

LAUTENBERG: I think these are similar circumstances. I think that the
fight that takes place in Israel is a fight for all civilized nations
across this world. I think that when you knuckle under, that terrorist
activities, as we see now underway, then you immediately say OK, it's
all right. Do what you want. Be as violent as you want and expect to win
your ...

COLMES: But (UNINTELLIGIBLE) exactly the same when it's been a ...


LAUTENBERG: Similar is what I said.

COLMES: Similar, but it's been a -- I would dispute even that there was
that degree of similarity. I mean it's been a land dispute that's gone
on for decades. You have a Palestinian Authority that was chosen by the
Palestinian people as opposed to what happened at the hands of
terrorists, the atrocity of September 11th, aren't there so many
differences here?

LAUTENBERG: Well I think if you use that example, you'd have to say well

if there was an occasional suicide bomber in Cincinnati or New York or
Chicago, protesting what happened to the natives -- Native Americans,
during those days, they would still have a right to protest and protest
under any fashion that they choose. That's no way to gain a peaceful
There could be political concessions. I'm sure of that. There must be.
The Israelis want it -- they're thinking Israelis who have now turned
aggressive because of the violence perpetuated against them, would be
happy to have a political solution.

COLMES: Hussein, we have a situation here we know what Palestinians
want. There was no list demands on September 11th, so there's an agenda
here. That's different than what ...

COMMITTEE: Well look, this whole analogy is ridiculous. First of all,
Israel is not conducing a war on terror. It's conducing a war of terror.
Three times as many Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel
than Palestinians, which has been deliberately targeting civilians from
the beginning. Palestinians have also killed Israelis. I think it's
horrible when these suicide bombs go off, and I condemn it. But so many
American commentators only seem to care when Israelis die.

COLMES: Arafat never denounced these bombings, though...

IBISH: Yes he has, as a matter of fact, many times and in Arabic. For
example, his speech at the end of Ramadan, in case you didn't listen to
it, in Arabic on Palestinian TV. But so many American commentators only
seem to care when Israelis get killed ...

HANNITY: Let me ...

IBISH: ... and that doesn't mean that it isn't equally immoral.

HANNITY: ... let me ask you some straight-forward concise questions, and

if you don't mind, just give me straight-forward (UNINTELLIGIBLE) very
concise ...


HANNITY: ... very concise -- why were Palestinians in the Middle East
when they heard the news that 3,000 Americans were slaughtered on
September 11th, why were they celebrating in the streets?

IBISH: There was one isolated incident. It did not represent the views
of the the Palestinian people at all. There were huge demonstrations
against it that were not covered here, candlelight vigils, et cetera. If
you're trying to demonize millions of people like this ...


IBISH: ... it just shows that you've got another agenda. You don't want
to talk about the actual issue.

HANNITY: ... there's no agenda. There's -- but what I ...

IBISH: Well I think there is. I think absolutely, clearly, there is.

HANNITY: Mr. Ibish, don't interrupt me. There's no agenda here except to

get to the truth because I've seen the video of people celebrating.

IBISH: What a red herring ...


HANNITY: ... we see on a daily basis innocent women, innocent children
targeted by people --- wait a minute.


HANNITY: Mr. Ibish ...

IBISH: ... Israelis have died that way.

HANNITY: ... if I have to turn your microphone down -- if you interrupt
me one more time, I'm going to turn your mike down.

IBISH: Look, you're not even listening to me at all ...

HANNITY: ... I invite you to - let me ask a question, you get a chance.

IBISH: Well you're not listening.

HANNITY: We see them targeted on a daily basis. Innocent women innocent
children targeted on a daily basis and you're not going to define that
as terror.

IBISH: I just did, but you're not listening to me. Look, what I'm
telling you is that three times as many Palestinians, 1,300
Palestinians, have been killed in the same way, directly, deliberately
by Israel. If you don't believe me, look at the ...

HANNITY: I don't believe you.

IBISH: Well, trying looking at the Amnesty International Web site. Look
at the Physicians for Human Rights Web site, the Human Watch Web site,
the Israeli group B'Tselem's Web site. Every group that has looked into
this has documented in detail this fact you refuse to believe for
ideological reasons.


HANNITY: Senator ...

IBISH: No. No. No.

HANNITY: Mr. Ibish ...

IBISH: People like Sean only care when Israelis are killed.

LAUTENBERG: Mr. Ibish, you can't - you can't use that kind of a
comparison. This isn't a checkers game. You can't say well, there have
been more killed over here than there ...


IBISH: Senator, you only care when Israelis die.


LAUTENBERG: No. No. Oh, no you're talking to the wrong man, and you
don't you don't know anything about me. I was there when ...

IBISH: Well, I'm listening to you and what you are saying, so...

LAUTENBERG: ... the Palestinians celebrated the opening of the airport,
and I was enthusiastic. And I tried to get financial help for the
Palestinians and give them ...


IBISH: Well now you're encouraging this war to destroy their society.


LAUTENBERG: No to destroy terrorism.

IBISH: This is a war to enforce the worst kind of tyranny, military
occupation, and you are for it. You're no friend of the Palestinians,


HANNITY: Well Senator Lautenberg, let me - let me go to you.


HANNITY: Mr. Ibish, please, please help the audience here to hear one
person at a time. You're not up right now, so please be quiet. I want to
go to you, senator. What's very frustrating to me is I see these
attacks. I see terror on a daily basis. These suicide bombers have been
aimed at women and children, and you have people that won't even hardly
admit this is, you know, something that Israel has to deal with. I'm

LAUTENBERG: Yes, well the behavior of the terror community is
uncivilized and the worst part of it is that in many cases it's being
supported by Arab nations. Look at Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has had
their hand in the dirty work for a long time including the attacks on
the World Trade Center, including the al Qaeda in Afghanistan ...

HANNITY: All right, but then here's my point. If the United States has
one battle plan for its war on terror, which is to get them wherever
they are ...


HANNITY: ... find them and destroy them. Why would we ask Israel
repeatedly to show restraint?

LAUTENBERG: I don't understand why, because when that's said it's
misunderstood on the Palestinian terror side, and they say oh look,
they're killing innocents. They're killing innocents because they get in
the way of them running after the terrorists ...

IBISH: What a pathetic lie, 1,300 people got in the way? They all died
by accident? Please!

HANNITY: So the only way to get ...

IBISH: No, I'm not going to let that pass without rebutting it.

HANNITY: Mr. ...


IBISH: None of you seems to know or care that all the human rights

HANNITY: If I have to - turn his mike down because we're not going to
let him speak until - you're interrupting. The audience can't hear. So
the only answer to all of this really is to destroy terrorists. There is
no chance of a negotiated sentiment really having any chance of working
if these terrorist networks and groups ...

LAUTENBERG: And it further encourages others to believe that they can
achieve the same kind of goal with the same kind of tactics. Look at
what they did with the - with the USS Cole. Look at what they did with
our embassies in Kenya and what was the point of that?

IBISH: That was not Palestinians at all. This is becoming absurd.

COLMES: Hold on. Mr. Ibish, you may - hold on a second. Mr. Ibish, you
made a statement a few minutes ago unmodified by an qualifier, you said
Israel is conducting a war on terror. Israel is ...


IBISH: I said it was conducting a war OF terror.

COLMES: I kind of see both sides here. But Israel is trying to survive
and there are those who would like to drive Israel into the sea. The
goal is not to have a war on terror, but to survive, correct?

IBISH: No, of course not. Look, by defininition Israel is not in
defensive posture. Israel is the only country in the world that
maintains tens of thousands of heavily armed troops and hundreds of
thousands of armed settlers outside their borders in somebody else's
country for the sole purpose of taking that land away from them and
keeping them in bondage. This has been going on for 35 years and it's
got to stop. That's what this conflict is about. I agree the Palestinian
suicide bombings should stop immediately. But you can't have a double
standard and be outraged only when Israelis get killed and call only
that terror, and just shrug about the Palestinians.

COLMES: All right, hold on, everybody gets to speak here....


COLMES: Mr. Ibish, we're very short on time. Senator, do you want to

LAUTENBERG: Yes, I - by his statements, Mr. Ibish is saying well these
terror incidents, they shouldn't happen. But why are they being
rewarded? Why are they being ...

COLMES: What would you do next? What should the next step be?

LAUTENBERG: Well I think the next step is for the people to get to the
table, in order to get ...


LAUTENBERG: ... you have to walk past the gunfire and you have to walk
past the explosions and until it's realized on the Palestinian side that
that's not going to win them anything, except loss of life, that's why
they've lost so many lives because they create the conditions that robs
the others of their ...


IBISH: I mean Sharon's policies have certainly not brought any security
to Israel. This attack is not going to bring any security to Israel, it
will just kill more Palestinians and expand the conflict further.

COLMES: So you need more terror.

IBISH: No, of course not. The only thing that's going to work is to end
the occupation, for Israel's troops to be in Israel where they belong so
that the two people can live side by side in independent states, but the
Israelis refuse to do this.

HANNITY: And give us what we want or we'll blow you up..

IBISH: No, that's so unfair and outrageous. It's the opposite of what
I'm saying and it's so opposed to peace.


COLMES: Senator, would you agree that Sharon's policies have not brought
peace? They have not worked?

LAUTENBERG: It's not Sharon's policies. It's the Palestinian terror
organizations that have objected to peace. They're the ones who have
declared against Israel, against Americans, against Hindus ...

IBISH: What are you talking about?

LAUTENBERG: ... against other - yes, holy war ...

IBISH: Palestinians have declared a war against Hindus? What a
ridiculous lie! I mean it's just bizarre...

COLMES: We thank you both very much. Mr. Ibish, we're just out of time.
Thank you for being here tonight.


COLMES: When we come back, are Democrats ready to rumble with the
president over Social Security? Can they make voters forget his
popularity as commander in chief? Former "CROSSFIRE" host Bill Press
will join us in a minute, then the latest form Guantanamo, should
prisoners have the right to starve themselves? That's all coming up.

-- Mr. E
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