Posted by Jeff from bgp01107368bgs.wbrmfd01.mi.comcast.net (188.8.131.52) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 at 11:48PM :
Re: On Being Jealous Of Our Way Of Life
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Posted by Julia from dhcp100030.res-hall.northwestern.edu (184.108.40.206) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 at 6:44PM :
In Reply to: Re: On Being Jealous Of Our Way Of Life posted by Jeff from bgp01107368bgs.wbrmfd01.mi.comcast.net (220.127.116.11) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 at 6:20PM :
: : ++when is it ok for anyone to die? why look only at Iraqi children...how many other millions of kids suffer from oppressive regimes, or laws that do not provide sufficient provisions for them....why are so many people starving in Latin American countries and in other third world countries? Why are we doing nothing about them? Who has priority in receiving our help, members of our own ethnicity? people who have the least nutritional intake? countries that have the highest infant mortality rate? does our discretion apply only to people who look like us?
: At the risk of sounding repetitive.... On the one hand, I agree with you somewhat, but on the other hand, there comes a time when you have to pick and choose.
++I agree that this is the unfortunate condition of life. We *do* have to pick and choose; do we first take care of people who are starving the most? (this could be determined by objective factors such as infant mortality rate, adult life expectancy, level of per capita income)...or do we take care of people that are extensions of ourselves?
I mentioned this before; people do have a tendency to preserve their identity, and defend it, which means it comes as a cost to others. THe maintenance of one identity means the non maintenance of another. And that means jews will take care of jews...and philipinos with philipinos....
so is this OK? I am asking this, and not really taking a side because i am not sure just yet. Is it 'ok' that each nationality fends for itself, protects its own interests? and why then would people complain from the fault of NOT helping others that are not of your immediate interest? Why would anyone get mad at the U.S. for its foreign policy on Iraq esp. when Iraq is not part of the identity or interest of the U.S.? According to your model, Jeff, they just simply picked and chose (bad grammar)....and it fits well to the model you designed.
I don't agree with this....i don't agree that peoples who belong to a certain group should use their limited resources in the interest of the group as opposed to people who really need it...........
i know this has consequences for the breakdown of identity: if jews help other jews and let iraqis die, they gain from preserving their identity but they 'lose' because they are letting innocent people die....
does this make sense? you've heard this before, i'm sure. The main question is, whose interests are you working for, and what cost does that entail for others who need help? Should we all just fend for ourselves and our own, esp. when there is limited resources and manpower? Isn't that what countries have been doing, more or less, throughout history...?
Perhaps Fred has fond memories of Iraq, after all, most Chaldeans - Assyrians are from there.
+++And the sad thing is , americans don't have fond memories of Iraq. I don't have fond memories of Iraq. But i need to know, and Americans need to know, and NGOs need to know, and other countries need to know...that it is people who need help, not just one ethnic race...and we should fight for people that are underprivilged, underrepresented...not just people who fit thsoe qualifications and look like us....
Sure, you have your Turkeys and your Irans, and maybe even some of our people from Syria... but... Perhaps some of us want to travel back there one day and not have to worry about dying of radiation exposure, etc the minute we step foot on the soil? It's not "bad" for us to want to help our own, even if they ARE Muslim.
++++ I totally agree. I agree with helping people that are in need of help, but i'm against jews helping jews, slavs helping slavs, turkish helping turkish....this to me means 'we value preservation of our own identity and people more than others' .
: Also, not that this will make my argument any stronger, but why do you suppose the Jews send money to Israel? Why don't they send money to the Phillpines or Uganda? Why to Armenians send money to Armenia, or Latvians to Latvia? Do you know the answer? (Hint: They aren't all racists or "religionists")
++++ see above for my answer. preservation of self and identity.
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Julia, I disagree completely. You read what I wrote, but you didn't "read" it.
I am not making a scientific model. Most of what I wrote is OPINION, and it is biased, of course, but it's what I believe. You are trying to take what I said and say "Well, according to the model that Jeff established..." referring to it several times, and I just can't agree with that.
It is a human tendency to try and help those who are like you. Accept that. It doesn't make us bad people, in my opinion. I think political correctness is neither political, nor correct... just a big load of BULLSHIT.
I'll say this to you without hesitation: I care more strongly about lifting the sanctions than about starving children in Africa, or anywhere else.
You don't want to work with someone who could say such a horrible thing? It's up to you. I only speak for myself.
If we were to go by your "model", all of those white people in Voices for the Wilderness and Metro Detroit against sanctions should be helping starving chinese and africans... who cares about the sanctions, right?
Which children are starving "more"??? Are you joking???
And as far as my model being used to justify the US's record of carnage... well, that's more of a stretch than I can handle.
2 + 2 ? [(VB-8)^e^4c/(8x+11(13*d))]
In my book it = 4.
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