Posted by panch from pool0468.cvx25-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (209.179.217.213) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 at 7:33PM :
In Reply to: The Great Debate, Part Deux posted by Jeff from bgp01107368bgs.wbrmfd01.mi.comcast.net (68.42.59.180) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 at 4:17PM :
: Marzillier: Thank you Mr. Parhead. Now, I will call on Dr. Ross for his first 10 minute
: presentation and then we will have 5 minutes each after that. Dr. Ross?
: (Mr. Parhad walks from the podium to his seat; Dr. Ross approaches the podium and begins)
: Dr. Ross: Well, I think I?m gonna do this a little more in-formally than Mr. Parhad
++++Well of course...all the Nazi nudists who wank in front of mirrors that I know of...are very informal guys.
: did. I? This doesn?t like to plant (referring to his handwatch). Alright, now we are we are all
: here because of a protest about my web page. A web page that was not given to my students, but was
: available for anybody who wanted to look at my web site.
: Now, what I teach is philosophy. And what I teach in that is logic and ethnics, and the kinds of
: critiques that I often have are about reasoning and about right and wrong, and the-- the web page in
: question was a web page about the politicization of history and about a nationalistic history and a
: nationalistic use of history and the support of distortions that often happen when history becomes
: politicized and people want to idealize their own people or their own tradition or their own history.
++++Which naturallly applies on to Assyrians...we all know that America or Britian would NEVER politicze or nationalize anything...or pay a fair price for anything either.
:
: Now, the sorts of things that bothered me, that originally moved me to write that page, ah.. really
: a couple of them, were already in Mr. Parhad?s remarks. And one of them was just his mention of
: King Nebuchadnessar as though King Nebuchadnessar was an Assyrian and Nebuchadnessar was not an
: Assyrian, Nebuchadnessar was a Babylonian, and also Hammurabi was a Babylonian. Now, on my web page
: there are a number of examples of mistakes like that what I consider to be distortions, and I don?t
: have sources with me here to list, but the sources are listed on the page and the web site.
+++Right...I don't know the difference between our kings. Tell me...did Paul Revere make that ride or was it Charles Dawes?
: Now, another what I felt was a confusion in Mr. Parhad?s remarks, was that the deportation of the 10
: tribes of Israel was not done by King Nebuchadnessar. The Babylonian captivity of the Jews under--
: originally under Nebuchadnessar, that was many years later, then the deportation of the 10 tribes of
: Israel.
+++Wait a minute! How about giving any evidence that there were ten tribes or twelve...or that any tribes WERE deported...the Bibile is not history...it's barely literature.
Now, if the question is: Do the cruelties in the Bible meet or surpass or don?t exist in
: the comparison to the cruelties of the Assyrians, it is not my interest or business to defend the
: Bible as a work of Ethics.
++++How about as a list of Human Right's abuses then? There isn't any question of "ethics" to begin with when a god condones the killing of innocent women and children.."even those that pisseth against a wall". There is no question of ethics at all here...where is this kind of murder by a deity no less ever ethical?
: In the Bible, God tells the tribes of Israel to go into the Promised Land and kill everybody! Well,
: I?m not interested in defending that. All I?m interested in is a neutral conception of history, and
++++NEUTRAL??? How'd you like me to come up with a "book" that says it's okay to killYOU? Wouldn't you want to know who wrote the damn thing?
: my objection is to an idealization of peoples in history. Now, one of the remarks I made on the web
++++Something again that Americans, Brits and Jews don't do...not to mention Nazis.
: page that Mr. Parhad and others seem to take particular exception to goes like this - cause I did
: bring what the actual quote is ? and it says: ?In sacred history, where it involved Israel, this
: [namely, and I have an example of the kinds of reprisals the Assyrians took against rebels] this
: could make the Assyrians as much the moral equivalent of Babylon, Pharaoh, and worse.
++++"Rebels"...you nit...r-e-be-e-l-s...NOT their children and anyone who pissed against a wall.
: Now, Babylon and Pharaoh are all condemned in the Bible because they do things that they are not
: supposed to, to Israel.
++++How would you like a used Ford shoved backwards up your pink polka dotted arse? Being condemened in the bible is hardly anything to be ashamed of...in fact, I'd feel bad about it if the same god that extolls killing people who piss...ANYWHERE! Just because we can't be rounded up neatly and included in that book, don't mean squat.
+++See that's where you guys always get it wrong...you start assuming the unbelievable in the first place...then take the damn thing for granted. You have no evisence whatsoever that the Bible came from any god. I'd like to see what you would make of Assyrians if one of us came down from a mountain and said we'd been chatting with bush on fire...or saw pillars of fire...I can just imagine how you'd howl!
But the context there is sacred history?cause if you are a Christian or a
++++Casred to you, is ridiculous to others..and we are all equal in the eyes of the Law...thank goodness.
: Jew, it doesn?t matter whether elements of Christianity or Judaism came from Ancient Mesopotamia,
: (whether that was the Epic of Gilgamesh or something else) to believing, Christians and Jews, they
: all come from God, even if there are these comparisons, cause after all, in Islam, if there are other
: religions that have elements that look like things in Islam, the explanation has always been, ?Well,
: that did come from God, independently.? And I?m sure Christians and Jews want to say the same thing.
: Now, you might wonder ?Well why did that matter? Why was I talking about sacred history?? Well, I
: was talking about the modern Assyrian community AS a Christian community, and all of my remarks were
: addressed in that context. Now, if there are modern Assyrians who are NOT Christians, that just
: isn?t going to mean anything to them. It?s not relevant. And there?s no reason why they should be
++++Up yours!!! No wonder you went to Hawaii to "study". You slandered Assyrians who were NOT Christians...you had nothing but praise for the puppy-dog Christians who have about as much in common with the ancients as you do to a palm tree.
+++Assyrioans who are NOT Christians, as well as those who take pride in their ancestry, have EVERY reason to be offended at your comments.
+++Is Bwana trying to tell us natives when we should be outraged? Do we have to ask you where we should piss too?
: protesting me about that, cause I?m not interested otherwise in saying that the Ancient Israelites
: were morally superior to anybody ? although I think in a couple of matters, maybe they were ?
++++Name one,and for every one you mention...we'll match you. Remember we also have a record of the awful things they did as well....things you'd be happy to hold against us if we ever sank that low.
++++Also remember that no Assyrians EVER went to Judea for finishing school,,,whereas the Jews were constantly shipping out,,,to Egypt, Assyria and Babylon to polish themselves up a bit...and it can be argued that any improvement in their bloody ways came through their contact with people far more civilized than they were.
:but that could be argued independently. I would certainly not personally want to argue that all their
: religion comes directly from God. So really there is a context to this statement, and I think the
: context gets overlooked. If you are going to ignore the authority that some people vest in religion,
: than what I would have to say might be very different. In the passage, that?s where it goes on to
: say ?Now, even Hitler?NOT even Hitler got rid of so large a percentage of Jews.? Now, that was
: quoted by Mr. Parhad as being that the Assyrians killed the Jews. And, of course they didn?t?they
: just deported them, but we don?t really know what happened to them because they disappeared from
: history.
++++What happened to the Native Americans...where are they? Jews "disappeared" all over the place...they disappeared to Europe and Asia too. They disappeared in Germany by the millions...seems we weren't the only ones disappearing them.
: Now, why did that deportation happen? Well, that was one of the practices of the Assyrians. Now,
: others had practiced deportations, the Hittites, even the Egyptians to an extent, had practiced
: deportations. Those are all part of Imperial policies. And why did the Assyrians do stuff like
: that? Well to break resistance. So Mr. Parhad mentioned that it?s rebels that get punished. Of
: course, rebels to the Assyrians are, you know, an insurrection to the people who practice the
: insurrection.
++++Jeezus Christ...not even a good apologist! If that's the case then one people's Bible is another people's toilet paper.
: And it may not be the Assyrians were any crueler than anybody else, but they had the largest empire
: of the day, they had the largest empire that had existed up to that point, and the problem that
: creates is they had to do everything on a larger scale than everybody else. And so if there?s
: resistance, if there is a ?rebellion? in their eyes, then you kill the leaders?and you kill them with
: exemplary tortures and then if that does not break the resistance of the community, you deport them,
++++Whereas the Jews just killed everybody. What WOULD you have people do when confronted with a rebellion?
: and it is not something just out of the bible, it is extensively documented in Assyrian records. And
: the estimates by Professor Roux in ?Ancient Iraq? is that over 3 centuries, something like 4 million
: people got deported.
++++Come ON! There weren't that many people to deport!
: Now, does that mean that I don?t like the Ancient Assyrians? Well, no. They were doing what other
: people did but they were doing a lot of it. [Dr. Ross is notified that he has one minute left] Ok.
: And why did I write about it? Well, again the context was that if you are a Christian or a Jew, they
: are on the wrong side of the religious issue. If you just don?t care about what Christians or Jews
: might think, well then: it?s not relevant. It doesn?t matter. The Assyrians were doing things other
: people did.
: But what we do have in the bible is the testimony of one of the conquered people. Cause really it
: has not ever been very well explained why the Assyrian empire fell?if it was so well governed, and it
: was so solidly founded, and it was so well supported, what happened? Well, one bit of evidence may
: be the Bible, may be the book of (________) especially that the Assyrians were hated by many of their
: subjects, even if the subjects were no longer able to resist, nor willing to resist. And of course
: the kingdom of Judah never resisted anybody else until the Celluseds centuries later. Thank you.
: (Applause)
++++It might be that Assyria didn't have an America to fall back on. Let's see how long you guys maintain YOUR empire.
: Marzillier: Okay. Now for a rebuttal, 5 minutes for Mr. Par?Parhad.
-- panch
-- signature .