Posted by Lilly from ? (18.104.22.168) on Friday, December 06, 2002 at 7:38PM :
In Reply to: Re: Ashrawi's talk posted by andreas from p3EE3C6E7.dip.t-dialin.net (22.214.171.124) on Friday, December 06, 2002 at 4:28PM :
I find it humourous that the majority of those claims that are made by the authors of those articles you cite are basically pulled out of thin air -
As far as whether or not she denies the Holocaust or not, I can not tell - I can not find the cited article online. She did not deny the Holocaust during her speech on Wednesday night.
: While not siding with her fundamentalist Jewish and Christian (?) opponents, I have to take into consideration also those psychological friend-foe mechanisms she is feeding - for which reason whatsoever.
xxx Please clarify that statement. I, personally, think that psychology can not be striped from any conversation w/ another person.
: E.g. is this the kind of stuff you had to deal with at her Vanderbilt lecture?
xxx The kind of stuff I had to deal w/ at the Vanderbilt lecture was a paper w/ more psychological bullshit trying to defame her, pushed by a professor I KNOW specifically to be pro-Israeli-right, to be a liar, & who is also thought by many of his peers & students to be a complete idiot.
: Please, comment especially on this excerpt:
: "... In perhaps her most brazen lie of all, Ashrawi said in a speech in Washington, D.C. in February 2001: "Jesus was a Palestinian." (Washington Jewish Week, Feb. 22, 2001) Never mind that Jesus was a Jew who had a bar mitzvah and kept kosher. The New Testament does not even use the word "Palestinian"; it refers to the area in which Jesus lived by its correct historical name, "Judea," meaning Land of the Jews.(For documentation of her many other lies, see http://www.camera.org/docs/alert/ashrawi.html and http://www.camera.org/docs/oncamera/ochanan.html.)..."
xxx I think what she is saying is that Jesus was ethnically similar to Palestinians... the people living in the occupied territories haven't changed so much, genetically over time that Jesus would be much different from them now.
: Hanan Ashrawi, the most prominent spokesman for Palestine's war of terror in the west
xxx What kind of groundless statement is that?
: Three Republican state legislators — Senate Minority Leader John Andrews, House Majority Leader Lola Spradley, and Rep. Debbie Stafford — say allowing Asrawi to speak sends out a bad message about terrorism. Namely that it is something good.
xxx Ashrawi has never said anything good about "terrorism." The author should prove such a statement, if he wishes to be fair. I believe that Ashrawi sees terrorism as reactionary - something that should be stopped, but can not always be prevented under these circumstances. I.e. she realizes that it is hard to control other people, andreas.
: The 56-year old Ashrawi has long been the darling of certain segments of the Western media thanks to her fluent English, her PhD, and her gender. For example, Leslie Stahl of 60-Minutes has lauded Ashrawi as a "Palestinian who has been at the peace process longer than almost anyone." ("60 Minutes," December 11, 1994). Ashrawi, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, frequently appears on American television and radio.
xxx These all sound like "not bad" things to me.
: One rare exception to the journalistic fawning over Ashrawi was Barbara Amiel's 1993 profile of the Palestinian spokeswoman in the London Sunday Times. Amiel was struck by the "lies and distortions" in Ashrawi's retelling of events.
xxx Which were?...
: She officially joined the PLO's "Palestinian Diplomatic Committee" and the "Intifada Political Committee" in 1988. Then, in 1991, Yasser Arafat appointed her as Official Spokesperson of the Palestinian Delegation to the "Middle East Peace Process." She served as the PLO's Minister of Higher Education and Research, and for one year was Head of its Political Committee.
xxx What's wrong w/ that? It seems to me that the author of this article is making the broad & erroneous assumption that anything Palestinian is automatically evil or bad.
: While pretending to be an "independent" civic activist outside the PLO, just quietly interested in protecting human rights for everyone besides Jews, in fact her non-profit organization (named MIFTAH) is propped up with $850,000 per annum granted it directly by Palestine's terrorist-in-chief Yassir Arafat.
xxx She openly & directly condemned suicide bombings & other violent activities in her speech here on Wednesday. In fact, she seemed quite concerned for the loss of lives on the Israeli side, as well as the Palestinian side. I can get a transcript of her talk & prove it to you. Note the strategic use of words (psychological manipulation, again), such as "terrorist" & "preventing."
: Ashrawi's MIFTAH web site makes it clear that she has never come to terms with Israel's existence and has never met an Arab suicide bomber she does not like.
xxx She did not seem to have a problem pointing out that Israel was in fact a state. Why don't you check out MIFTAH's web site, yourself, & see what it is that is not to like about it? Do you think the author of this attrocious piece of psychological work is someone who can tell you what to like & what not to like? Are you a child, andreas, who needs to be spoonfed arguments that other people make, or can you make your own arguments? Just b/c something is in print does *not* mean that it bears any bit of truth in it. Critique articles for yourself, & learn to find things that you like about them or find authors who's ideas & statements you like. Even in science, supposedly a discipline built around "objectivity," one has to sort through articles to see if one likes the authors & can trust that what they produce is representative of something that those authors have seen multiple times (b/c not every graph or picture can have error bars). In science, frequently you find an article in which the print, the argument does not follow the data! It's ridiculous, & basically takes away from the credibility of that author in others' eyes.
: Right after Palestinian terrorists murdered 28 people at a Passover seder in Netanya, Ashrawi gave an interview on Abu Dhabi TV. She made no comment on the Netanya attack, preferring instead to condemn Israel for forcing the expulsion of 13 Palestinian murderers to Europe.
xxx Why should she appologize for someone else's activities? That's like me telling you, andreas, that you have to appologize publicly for attrocities committed by Nazis in WWII. & what's wrong w/ condemning Israel for that ridiculous expulsion?
: She appears on forums with those who support bin Laden.
xxx Which forums, specifically, is the author talking about? & anyway, that she appears on these forums does not mean that she sides w/ them. Often a forum consists of many people w/ different takes on a situation. Like this virtual one here.
: Ashrawi has a long history of celebrating Palestinian atrocities and murders of Jews.
xxx Which is?... Give some facts please.
: Just two days before 9-11 she said on the Palestinian Authority's official Voice of Palestine (Sept.9, 2001): "The only language Sharon understands is the language of violence."
xxx Note the use of the tie-in w/ 9/11 - another psychological manipulation on the part of the author. I think she's right about Sharon - he's a terrorist, just like Bush - but that's my opinion - look how many people who've died as a direct result of Sharon's military history - remember Sabra & Shatila?
: She justifies random murders of Jewish civilians by Palestinian terrorists (Rocky Mountain News, Aug. 16, 2002).
xxx What's her supposed argument? How come the author doesn't say exactly how she justifies these things? I can't take his word at face-value. He's not convincing me.
: When Palestinian mobs tortured, mutiliated, gouged out the eyes, and lynched two unarmed Israeli reserve soldiers in Ramallah in 2000, Ashrawi cheered them on (Times, October 29, 2000).
xxx How did she cheer them on? Did she publicly scream out loud? What did she say? How come the author doesn't quote her or paraphrase her? His argument is suspect.
: Ashrawi told the New York Times in 1992: "Only the voice of power works...We've been very reasonable and very gentle and nonviolent, and look what they got us: more suffering for our people..." (August 23, 1992).
xxx The Israeli right has been pushing for more & more violent activities on the part of the Israeli gov't to egg on Palestinians who are frustrated. For example, suicide bombing is actually a recent phenomenon - starting in 1983... I agree w/ her that violent activities started in retaliation to the Israeli gov'ts policy of treatment of the Palestinians - e.g. shutting off water & electrical power to the occupied territories, forcing whole populations of people to struggle just for basic necessities. People were literally collecting rain water in buckets so they have water. There are many other things done by the Israeli gov't meant to provoke reactionary violence as well. & now it is worse - what the Israeli gov't is doing to the Palestinians, & what various groups of Palestinians feel they must do to defend themselves. Israel is the aggressor there.
: Ashrawi has even defended the Islamist fundamentalist terrorist group Hamas, which has killed hundreds of Israeli civilians in suicide bombings and other attacks.
: According to Ashrawi, Hamas is a legitimate component of the Palestinian "political spectrum," and she doesn't "think of Hamas as a terrorist group. We coordinate politically...the people we know and talk to are not terrorists." (UPI, April 30, 1993)
xxx Sorry, andreas, but Hamas is a political organization that is Palestinian, whether one likes its activities or not. See: http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/hamas.htm
: This is the very person regarded by Colorado College as the appropriate speaker to discuss al-Qaeda's Islamist terrorism with objectivity.
xxx Al-Qaeda & Hamas are different organizations. She's not a member of Hamas, either, so she would be considered to be able to discuss Hamas even from an "objective" stand-point.
: Ashrawi does not recognize Israel's legitimacy in any set of borders whatsoever, and she routinely refers to Israel's creation as "the Disaster".
xxx She does recognize Israel as a legitimate state. I heard her say so herself. As for the disaster part - has it occurred to the author what it was like for the Palestinians to be ethnically cleansed from the area that is now Israel? Of course they'd think it was a disaster - whole families were killed & removed from the land that they had owned for generations.
: She considers Tel Aviv and Haifa to be illegal settlements, Israeli-occupied Palestine in need of liberation.
xxx She said this when & where? Again, no reference. On the legality of settlemens in general, see http://www.fair.org/press-releases/settlement-euphemisms.html However,
: She has justified the PLO murdering Palestinians it suspects of "collaboration" with Israel (on the McNeil-Lehrer News Hour on Sept. 3, 1993).
xxx Something the US & Israel do when they suspect someone of collaborating w/ the "other" side as well. Not that any sort of death sentence is good.
: She has a very long history of telling the most blatant lies to the press.
xxx Which are?...
: In a speech at Yale University on April 8, 2000, Ashrawi claimed that Israel is "carrying out ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem." (Jewish Currents, June 2000).
xxx What else do you call the removal of a people from their land? It's also genocide.
: In a speech in San Francisco in November 2001, Ashrawi falsely accused Israel of "enslaving" the Palestinian Arabs. (Jewish Bulletin of Northern California, Nov. 16, 2001)
: In an interview with CBS in November 2000, Ashrawi falsely claimed that Palestinian Arab children were not being sent to engage in violence against Israelis. .Not even animals would send their children into battle,. she said. (Jerusalem Report, Nov. 20, 2000.) She must be the only Palestinian on earth who is unaware of such behavior.
xxx I believe that the children are not *intentionally* sent to throw stones at IDF soldiers, but that they do so behind their parents' backs, most of the time.
: She has long denied Jews have any right to immigrate to any part of Israel. In a speech in Detroit in 1995, Ashrawi "demanded...no more immigration by 'foreigners' [to Israel], by which she meant Jews." (Jerusalem Post, June 2, 1995)
xxx I think that's a request based on the knowledge that Israel has a long history of openly recruiting "foreigners" to settlements by giving all sorts of financial incentives. Besides, the Israeli gov't seems to have the problem admitting that Palestinian refugees deserve a right to return to a Palestinian state.
: In a speech in San Francisco in November 2001, Ashrawi declared: "You (the Israeli Jews) should go back to where you belong; what right do you people from Russia and Brooklyn have to our land?" (Jewish Bulletin of Northern California, Nov. 16, 2001).
xxx When that land is forcefully taken from Palestinians, I can see where that sentiment comes from. She's not calling for Israelis who are from the Mid East to leave, & I believe that the question she is asking is rhetorical - it is not meant to be taken as her true desire.
: In perhaps her most brazen lie of all, Ashrawi said in a speech in Washington, D.C. in February 2001: "Jesus was a Palestinian." (Washington Jewish Week, Feb. 22, 2001) Never mind that Jesus was a Jew who had a bar mitzvah and kept kosher. The New Testament does not even use the word "Palestinian"; it refers to the area in which Jesus lived by its correct historical name, "Judea," meaning Land of the Jews.(For documentation of her many other lies, see http://www.camera.org/docs/alert/ashrawi.html and http://www.camera.org/docs/oncamera/ochanan.html.)
: In the very days when all the news footage on earth was showing Palestinian mobs taking to the streets to celebrate Bin Laden's Sept 11 attacks on America, Ashrawi appeared on the screen and argued with a straight face that there were no such celebrations and that the Palestinians shared American grief.
xxx The footage of Palestinians "celebrating" the 9/11 attacks was played on national TV w/in 15 minutes of the attacks - I remember it well b/c I was watching it live on TV. How could so many Palestinians have heard of those attacks so quickly & been celebrating in the streets so long that camera crews could capture it on film? Perhaps they were celebrating something that day, but it is highly unlikely that they were celebrating an event that happened 15 min. before in a land & time zone that is far away from them. If you ask the US representatives stationed in Israel & the occupied territories, you would hear that in fact many, many more Palestinians held candle light vigils that night & sent their sympathies to the representatives.
: In fact the Palestinian street she represents was nearly unanimous in celebrating Bin Laden's great "victory". Ashrawi herself lectured Americans about how the attacks were America's comeuppance for its having supported Israel (appearing on ABC with Peter Jennings, September 13, 2001).
xxx Osama uses the Palestinian cause to motivate his followers.
: Part of the reason for her mythical 'moderation' hailed so often by the media is that she was one of several Palestinian "intellectuals" who signed a petition against suicide bombings of Israelis. In fact, if one reads what that petition actually says, it turns out Ashrawi and her friends see nothing immoral at all about random murders of Israeli children and are not opposed to suicide bombings in principle; in the petition they simply argue that the timing for more such attacks is wrong (for now) because they are harming the PALESTINIANS (including bad press and Israeli reprisals). Some moderates! It is only the damage done by these attacks to the Palestinians that disturbs these "moderates."
xxx Why not? Isn't there more than one side to this issue? "However, she cautioned that Palestinians should refrain from resorting to terrorist tactics since to do so is "morally wrong and politically self-defeating"." http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/592/re2.htm
How can "morally wrong" be misconstrued to mean that there is nothing wrong w/ the action? The author is not being objective.
: In another expression of her moderation, Ashrawi came out against any compliance by the Palestinian Authority with its Oslo obligations to extradite terrorists and murderers.
xxx Who's defining "terrorists" & "murderers"? The IDF could be considered a group of murderers or terrorists, you know. So could the US military.
: She has supported Saddam Hussein and condemned American moves to topple him, and has even denounced the Saudis for "kowtowing" to the United States.
xxx How has she supported Saddam? I don't support Saddam, but I do condemn American moves to topple him b/c those moves result in the deaths of many innocent Iraqis. I think a lot of people feel that way, & a lot of people also don't like how the Saudi royal family bends over backwards to keep friendly relations w/ the US, despite the ramifications of this behaviour for the rest of the Middle East.
: Since 2001 she has served as spokeswoman for the Arab League, an organization of Arab dictatorships that misses no chance to show its solidarity with Saddam Hussein.
xxx That's a statement that should be subject to further scrutiny - during the Gulf War, the Arab League did not show solidarity w/ Saddam.
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