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Re: Furthermore
Posted by Habibi (Guest) - Thursday, July 8 2004, 23:23:46 (CEST)
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Now, you say you aren't victimizing yourself and what I'm telling you is that it sounds like you are. The whole "why me?" tone of the personal accounts you gave in the previous post led to that observation. I don't doubt that the experience you are having is distinct from that of women in professional schools given that women have not infiltrated the hard sciences in the same numbers. But don't tell me you did not assess the issue before jumping into the program. That was rhetorical, I don't need to know whether you actually did or not. You must have gotten a feel for the people and the gender dynamic before you stepped in though. I would be hard pressed to believe you didn't. That was the reason that I walked away from the hard sciences after 2.5 years of it in undergrad. I didn't like the people, I wanted to find a niche where I liked the people.

xxx I'm not asking "why me" but using an experience as an example for you. I knew science was going to be challenging. That's why I'm in it. But there are some things that I didn't expect. To be honest, I didn't expect the gender problems mostly because the guys I worked around in undergrad were so respectful toward me. You know, I attended an NIH workshop in DC with my new lab a month ago, and I was shocked - mostly men, a handful of women, and maybe 2 African Americans (including a lab mate of mine). Wow. I want to help other people out who feel the same way I do, right now by supporting them, and if I get into a position of power and authority someday, by changing things a bit. I don't care what field a person is in, if he/she has to deal with discrimination or even an unfriendly atmosphere, then it should be fixed.

You probably are intimidating, but you are right, that has nothing to do with voice. That's all presence: the whole package. And probably it has partly to do with the perception of these guys about "women" in general. But intimidating people usually have people's attention. So, I don't know.

xxx "Intimidating" is a word that means something different for men and women. Intimidating women are supposedly "agressive" and it's a negative thing. Intimidating men are supposedly "brilliant and hard to approach" and it's a positive thing for them. That's how it is in medicine, at least. One of my female MD friends was saying that female MDs are usually considered to be "bitchy" because of all the crap they've had to deal with just to get where they are. Things may be changing a bit, but not that much and not fast enough.

I don't pay attention to trends. You misinterpreted what I was saying, which also tells me that you are getting a little more than irritated with this conversation and shutting me out. Believe me when I tell you that the marketing of inadequacy is NOT only targeted at women. I was just making reference to what is socially recognized. I don't even know if long or short skirts are in at the moment... Please calm down. I cannot seriously engage someone who is coming off so aggressive.

xxx Again, the word "aggressive" is not meant as "assertive," but "mean-spirited," right?

> xxx I felt that way about other women in the field, once… But you know, I realize that they’re just seeing me the way that the powerful men want them to see me – future competition. Why don’t they see me as future competition for their male colleagues’ jobs, instead?

This is not a fair assessment as far as I'm concerned. You are excusing the women's behavior and villifying the "powerful men."

xxx I'm not excusing them, but I am trying to understand why they are like that so I don't become one of them.

> xxx Let’s just say that I work harder than anyone else in my lab – worked harder and had more insight than that idiot male student, esp. The problem is that men who feel comfortable talking only to other men are the ones who are going to inadvertently stop you from getting ahead. They feel comfortable with those guys, can talk sports all day long, and yes hard work will help you get ahead. But look at the guys who DO get the jobs – why is it that they can afford to take long vacations and enjoy themselves once in a while and you have to constantly prove yourself to your boss??? Isn’t that insulting?

I'm really sorry, habibi, but *I'M* the one that enjoys the long vacations so again, I can't relate. I never feel insulted that my boss expects the best of me.

xxx I'm not either. It's just that I was being taken for granted. Grad students are often viewed as ultra-cheap labor, and if you're a smart one who works hard, often the professors try to keep you around just because you are such a good deal.

xxx What I was wondering, initially, is whether or not you care about other womens' issues? I see no problem talking about it and reading up on feminist issues to keep myself informed. These things have to be addressed, and how else are we going to address them if we are keeping silent about it? It's not whining to talk about it. Yes, it is important to try, if one wants to succeed, but what happens when trying isn't enough?



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