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=> Re: Shunning Jesus

Re: Shunning Jesus
Posted by Shushan (Guest) - Sunday, September 5 2004, 10:31:38 (CEST)
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farid >>>>>>I guess what dislike is this business about Jesus being valued beacuse he was murdered for his beliefs...which I still find nothing out of the ordinary...if you discount the Messiah nonsense..the lifeboat for Hebrews sinking in goat turds. I also dislike the idea of benefitting from his murder..I don`t want his robe..I don`t want his sandals, his watch...keychain, land in Florida..I don`t want ANYHTNING including Heaven that comes my way if I AGREE to have him murdered for ME..so I can benefit.

xxx I too never liked the murdered part and the way it is glorified. As a kid, I thought it horrible and use to look in shock almost at the tortured man on the cross... and then when I would hear the parts of the sermon with his kind good words, it was worse... and then when I would hear the hell and damnation parts of the sermon, even as a kid, I knew something was wrong with what I was being taught. I agree that I don't won't him murdered for me and it does not save me and i don't want to be saved either, and most of all i don't think it shows how much he loved us... i think it shows how despicable humanity is and they prove it with every day with every friend's betrayal, with ever war started, with every act of terrorism, with every school yard bullying, with ever act of corpoarte greed that shows indifference to human suffering, etc etc ... and I got yelled at by a nun once after she said how wonderful it was that Jesus died like that for our sins, when I said if human sins and evil killed him then how does that death save us, and wouldn't it be better if he had lived to 100 and spread his kindness and teachings... and this mentally deranged nun told me that I would be damned and rot in hell for thinking like that... yeh, religion is good for kids... we teach them not to think for themsleves just like santa clause stories do, to suspend logic and let others tell you things that if you really think about it make no sense, but follow all the other beasts as they run off the cliff thinking it will take them to heaven... i rather try to be a good person and if i am wrong and there is a heaven and hell, i will go were all the good people go and if you have to believe a story to go to the good place then why would i wantt to spend eternity with fools.

farid >>>>>I don`t like extolling the virtues of those we kill...making our violence and injustive signs of divine grace on our part..like our part in this ridiculous melodrama is to play the butchers..or the ones who hire the assassins It`s more of that Yahwe`s Rod business I find disgusting...same with what happens to Judas..the poor shmuck is the one who started the end...without him you could have had ten Christs and if they weren`t turned in and killed NO heaven...why does he get such a shafting? There should be prayers of thanksgiving offered up to the one who was essential to God`s plan and who paid the ultimate price..talk about being a Martyr and being hated for all time...you can`t even use that perfectly lovely name any more.

xxx the thing with the judas part that confused me, is jesus tells him he has to do what he has to do essentially, that it is important for his sacrifice... and he knows at the last supper and says who will betray him, the first one to put their bread down or soemthing like that, so they all know, but noone does anything to stop him and jesus then sends him off to do some "errands"... so they say jesus wanted the crucification to fullfill prophecy.. and that all just seems nutty... so to me it almost seemed like the story implies that jesus/god has judas turn him in and not the devil... i always fournd that part weird. and the other thing that has always bothered me, was on the cross Eloi Eloi Lama Sabacthani... god god why has thou forsaken me... and i asked a nun once in sunday school if jesus is god then why is he asking god if he has forsaken him.. got no answer just punished... so you see if he asked that question and he is a god too then we have more than one god with jesus as the lesser god in human form... and if he wondered just before his last breath if god has forsaken him... how does that save us.... maybe his murder did not save us but damn us for if god forsook him, then he surely gave up on all of us.. maybe it was a test like the one where they claim in the OT he asks a man to sacrifice his sone to see if he will and then when he goes to he says your punked ... just testing you... what if he was testing us to see if we could accept this man and his being so different and so kind... and we failed. not that i beleive any of these stories, just saying suppose.

farid>>>>There`s just too much murder to the whole thing fo my tastes..and then hanging the murder weapon round children`s necks is just too much to bear..this is barbarity on a massive scale and it`s kept us with one foot in Jerusalem of 2000 years ago while the other tries to pull away into a more enlightened and healthier time...only to have the entire body slide back into savagery and bloodletting and more talk of sacrifices and the gifts that come from even more murder.

xxx not to mention looking up at a man as a child with nails and blood dripping from his hands and feet, and gash in his side, and anguish, with what looks like a humiliating diaper and thorns peircing his skull... it bothered me as a child.. and still does... and i firmly believe that the ones that it does nto bother, become incompassionate to human suffering to accept it as grace and glorify it... and boy doesn't that show in humanity from things like damning to burning scientific minds to crusading etc... when you accept as the premise of your fait that a violent horrendous incompassionate inhumane act saves you and is the cornerstone of your faith, then it gives one free reign to do the same in the name of that faith/religion.. in my humble opinion.

farid>>>>If Jesus was part Assyrian..so what? Nothing he said was earth shaking..not to us. Boiling water was a miracle to them Hebrews...so I guess we shouldn`t be surprised that they were so aghast at what he said...any other Assyrian lost in Judea would have fared about as badly I guess...I wouldn`t have lasted three minutes..never mind three years.

xxx well, i can't prove he is assyrian and being the skeptic i don't believe anything i can't prove but cause my grandmother believed it, i kind of want to believe it but you are right it does not matter, other than it could explain why the way he looked at faith was so different than the other rabbis and why they killed him.

farid>>>> There just isn`t any great anything in his message...certainly nothing new..and for him to go wandering among the Hebrews repeating common Assyrian philosophy makes him unique in Jerusalem...okay, but it seems like more of a death wish than anything else...those people killed their own for no reason at all...imagine what they`d do to an Assyrian.

xxx this is were i disagree, for there was a way in which he said stuff in parables, unless we later find those parables in assyrian artifacts, i will assume they came from his mind... he was like the first psychologist for he knew that if you phrase your teaching in a question that is not quite clear that people engage thinking and almost in a hypnotic way and they are more open to suggestion of what you are teaching, and i believe he probably had an almost hypnotic effect on his audience and bet he had the persona and charisma and powerful presence to do that... i feel it when i read the words that they say come from him.. except a few parts here and there that so obviously were added afterwards by the author to fit the political times after his death.

farid>>>>I`m afraid that Jesus was merely used..by everybody as he still is...it was his murder that made him...and I won`t go along with that...but forget the murder and look at what he said...what he preached...and it`s tepid and lukewarm all the way...that he would persist in the face of certain doom says something for his courage and stamina...but that he`d waste it trying to educate THOSE people...who`d been dragged to Egypt...Assyria, Babylon and into the Persian Empire with so little benefit...ot at least in the ones who went back each time because they couldn`t live among civilized people..and these were all Jesus could find who didn`t already know what he was talking about...speaks to his desperation to do SOMETHING for those dumb fucks...but what a waste...

xxx i think he was trying to do something.. i think he was trying to get them to be less damning to each other and their enemies, and lest stict with dogma and use the spirit and not the letter of their religious laws, and think with their hearts.. and the irony is that Chrisitanity did the opposite and is more damning and dogmatic than judaism... and afterall it was set in stone by ruthless roman empire... you know the same one that crucified people caused horrific suffering, more so than our ancestors did, but noone labels them evil and cursed and look how the bible keesp all the vendetta against us cause our ancstors were imperalist to their neighbors as all super powers unfortunatley are, but look how it sugar coats what rome did... even gibson's passion movie, he villifies the jews shows them heartless unfliching unmoved by jesus, but the ones that did the dirty work, the ones that screwed up the jewish people with their tyranny, the romans, he has them have looks of pity and belief in who jesus was in the end... gibson is just one more tool kissing up to the holy rome to whitewash all the horrors and damage they have inflicted.

farid>>>>The only REAL Christianity today would be a stranger to Jesus and he to it..they`d string him up all over again...whatever he was...he wasn`t the Messiah...just a lost Assyrian at best.

yes, i agree with you that he would be preaching against the religion and the rich and opulent palaces and pharisee like popes and preists living in isolated splendor and worshipping statues and crosses of his suffering and our inhumanity... and he would be appauled at what was attributed to him after his death like that whole armeggedon psychosis supposedly frm an angel sent by him to a delusional vindictive john. and yes, they probably would string him up all over again, and start a new religion around how it saves a new group of cult like fanatics... and how many messiah cults have come and gone... and how we all see the psychosis in them from jonestown to waco, but we don't see the problems in our own false beliefs... do you know how many suicides there were in early AD cause people were ready for an armeggedon... and what about those recent wackos that killed themselves cause a space ship was coming to take them to a higher spiritual place.. probably the same space aliens on wackos like sitchen's think come from a fictious planet 12 that probed and cloned our ancestors into civilization... almost as farcical as a demon with horns and pointy tail and pitchfork down in the hot lava of hell trying to jump in our souls and posses us to get our souls to torture for eternity... there has to be a wacko meter on all this crap that is just going haywire... how can people believe such foolish things and then think they can use that to damn and harm people for not believing it.. there is my answer ... that is why they believe it so they can use it against people with twisted distorted lies... having just been subjected to that myself, i know the damage that is doing and maybe it is time to stop being afraid to offend by telling people how ridiculous these beliefs are... or maybe it is time to give up and go away.. the jury is still out ;).



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