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Posted by beezlebub (Guest) - Wednesday, August 3 2005, 17:45:56 (CEST)
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Posted By: Firas Jatou <jatou@mail.com> (c-67-174-222-254.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: Wednesday, 3 August 2005, at 3:48 a.m.

In Response To: Re: so tell me... (beezelbub)

I don't see what this has to do with the subject. Stick to the topic please.

...I am...when you use another name for me...you go off topic...it's good to know who you're dealing with...a good place to start.

[Firas] I cannot keep up with your name changes as they seem to change often (fred, farid, beezlbub, jesus the jew, etc..). I did not realize that Farid is now formally your name. I was under the impression that you are just using it for shock value which is not unexpected from you... If it is Farid, then it is Farid.

..it's no different than shock and awe...you remember that don't you?

If you want to ask about my nickname,, feel free to do so.

..okay, I will...you told me once that you were thinking about changing your name to Jones,

[Firas] That is a lie and you know that. Who is saying silly things now ?

...We were standing face to face when you said it...

I believe it was. I thought that was odd...I mean you all complain about how Saddam would force you to change your names...as a way of Arabizing you or some such silly thing...

[Firas] I have not changed my name. Everyone knows me as Firas. I use Ross at work because everyone and their brother pronouncing it Firas differently. This is a nickname only as it is close Firas without the 'Fi'. In addition, I am not fond of the name as it an Arab name after all. If I do change my name officially I will likely change it to Ashur as you can never have enough Ashurs...

...thanks...you just proved my point.

...why not...you concluded, based on what no one knows, that America is in the habit of helping Darkies get their "indigenous" lands back...it seems to me that was a far worse miscalculation...no?

[Firas] Here you go again making up statements. I certainly have never said 'America is n the habit of helping Darkies get their indigenous lands back'

....and neihter has anyone said you will get a traingle...yet you plan for it.

>democracy MEANS an iron hand by the majority OR the stronger minority who set the rules and define the terms

Ofcourse no one wants that. Many Assyrian activists have stated that on numerous occasions.

...you state lots of things...look at aina...you've closed the doors again...it seems being unpopular wins you no guarantees at your own forum...and you expect them in Iraq?

...I haven't read of a single one...and I've had more "time" than you've had to read....

[Firas] Yonadem Kanna in San Jose, CA stated it last year when he was visiting. Ninos Aho has said it at the convention in Detroit two years ago. John Michael has stated it in many meetings in Chicago.

...and Bush was going to liberate Iraq...for you. It takes nothing to say things...your actions, in the land of the free and home of the brave speak louder...you would ban and delete anyone who was displeasing to you personally...of course you would SAY..."we had many complaints"...as you told me again face to face...when you explained why you had to ban me...

...but they vary not all in their basic principle, which is, first and foremost, MAJORITY RULE That is ONE thing that can't vary, or it is NO democracy...and any concessions the majority gives a minority are determined also by the MAJORITY. So any and all minorities are dependent on the goodwill of the majority...in Iraq's case, the Shiia...this is NOT an "ideal" statement...it is a fact...explain how this is NOT the case in Iraq?

[Firas] yes, no one is disputing that. Majority Rule is part of democracy and it is BETTER than a dictatorship such as that of Saddam's.

..it is BETTER to have the majority Shiia in power? It is BETTER to give the Kurds what Saddam never would have? How the hell are you going to put the Shiia BACK in their box AND take anything away from the Kurds...with a minority VOTE??? Are you serious or just out of practise...I mean at having to make sense.

There are many ways to safeguard minorities within a new constitution and having be build on democratic principles are a better foundation that any other that has been proposed (eg. monarchy, shari'a, etc.)

...you have said this without once saying how...there is NO way for a minority as small as your's to get anything past such a dominant and extremem majority...and you can't even THINK of one...you just keep repeating the same thing over and over..."there is a way". WHAT way? Can Native Americans get Florida back through the vote? Can they?

...you took a tremendous risk then...not you directly but you PLACED the Christians in Iraq in a terrible position...THEY never asked to be liberated...

[Firas] Please do not speak on behalf of the Assyrians of Iraq as you, nor I, represent them.

...you spoke for them often enough when you said they needed this war to be free. I am not representing them anywhere...I am stating a simple fact...the United Nations doesn't represent them either, yet they compiled stats anyway..does Bush represent them that he has determined which of them live or die?

I can say however, that of the few data points I have gathered (Assyrian newspapers from the northern Iraq, discussions with community leaders) they had asked to be liberated from Saddam.

...because they, like you, are fools. No one was going anywhere to do THEM any favors. That is STILL no reason to assume anything positive will come from an attack...native Americans CANNOT call to be saved by an outside agency or country...that's known as Treason.

William Y. called me a day after Saddam's capture from Iraq saying that this ought to be a holiday for Iraq. Sargon L. from Nineveh when I visited last year said now he feels some relief to his 26 cousins (yes 26!) who were killed or continue to be missing since 1988 during the Anfal campaign. Naramsin Y. told me that now that Saddam is gone, a flood will not make him leave Assyria now.
I do not want to paint a rosy picture. There are major problems and some of ur people are leaving, but again, it is not as black and white as you portray it, Farid.

...you will continue saying this as long as ONE person over there is "happier". You do what all selective reporters do...you hunt through the mess looking for a sign of "hope"...you all have great FAITH and HOPE...

they were doing fine and well...

[Firas] No they were not. This is untrue and you know it.

...it is true and YOU know it...the thing you do is call all Christians in Iraq who were satisfied with their lives "traitors"...and all your pals are those who want "their country back"...the ones who thought they would gain something with Saddam gone...well, they'll have their chance to live that better life now...you are the SAME kin ds of people who insisted that being Levies would mean better days...the same ones who found cousins and friends among the ones who thought exactly as they did...and you all ignored the vast majority back then who were telling you NOT to do it, that you would make life worse for everybody...you went ahead then...and you went ahead this time...you got one Simele then and you have gotten the equivalent of several now...and it has only begun.

...you cannot give a SINGLE instance when local democracy would be any different...

[Firas] Ofcourse I can, the mayers of the districts of Hamdaniya and Telkaif are Assyrians.

...Tariq Azziz is as well...and he wans't a mayor...but he was an "Arabizedtraitor"

in which case their candidates will lose every time for obvious reasons...
[Firas] Again you are mistaken. on a local level, we do win where we have significant numbers. This is why we need to focuse on the Assyrian heartland of today.

...I thought you were losing villages all over the place? A mayor can do nothing to change Federal Law...you had these people under Saddam as well...what you DIDN'T have was a Shiia majority in power...do you see a difference?

can you imagine a single Muslim voting for a Christian candidate or issue after this war?

[Firas] Yes, I can imagine. Can you not ?

...we'll see.

..it does [the constitution] nothing of the kind and is NO constitution at all...it is a document drawn up by puppets...

[Firas] You are changing the subject again. This is not about who drew up the document or its level of effectiveness. the point is does do that in the TAL and it can in the new constitution. The chances do not look good but there is a chance. More chance than any constitution under Saddam.

...remember your words...that the Christians will have "more chances" under Shiia rule than under Saddam...

people the Iraqis don't even KNOW and have never seen...

[Firas] That is not the case for some like Talabani, Barazani, Alawi, and a few others. Many people in Iraq know them. You are right that the majority are not well known but that is epxected after a 99.997% elections results for Saddam in the previous regime. Do you really expect them to be know with Saddam in power.

....and do you think these puppets will survive the bloodbath to come? 14 Marines were killed today...Americans are desperate to get out...far more than the media are addmitting...in time they will not want to HEAR about "abuses" in Iraq...Iraq will be left to fight itself...and guess who is hated now by EVERYBODY.

...like I said...you would prefer to beg in SOORETH than apply for a job in Arabic.

[Firas] What are you trying to say here? some of the most advanced teachers journalists, scholars in Iraq are Assyrians who know Arabic very well. That does not mean we should abandon our language. You are changing the subject again...

...you are pleased with token achievements...such as being able to teach a language..a language that is protected all over the world...at the cost of losing so many tangible benefits...such as schooling for women and businesses...and material well being. Saving the language, one that was under no danger of disappearing, can hardly be worth all of this.

...you might as well have every thief in America cry that he is being persecuted for his RELIGION when he's arrested for stealing.
[
Firas] Bad analogy Farid... Try again. You can do much better.

..this is exactly what you have done...there was never any campaign to get Christians in Iraq...never. There was action taken against those Christians who broke the law...and teachinjg sedition is illegal anywhere in the world. When Christians who spoke too loudly about Iraq being THEIR's were hauled off to jail, you said they were jailed because of their religion...because Iraqis are just like...you neglected to mention the difference between persecution and PROSECUTION.

We have such an area in the Nineveh plains (slightly north of Ashur and up to the mountains directly north of Ninveh).
...you have no such thing. The Seminole Indians have a TREATY signed by Congress and the president of the United States promising them Florida,

[Firas] we do have such a thing. I do not know Seminole Indians. however, I highly doubt that the demographics in florida show a percentage of these Indians anywhere near ours in the areas I mentioned. It seems that you are not aware of the figures...

...you are not. Do you mean to tell me this whole thing can be right if enough Christians get KILLED? Is THAT what your claim is dependent on? If your numbers are reduced...then you have no claim?

...the numbers don't matter...they could take a smaller chunk of Florida and give it to fewer people...the point is that no government gives anything back.

...In international law and all cases such as this...possession is 100% of the Law...ask the Israelis.

[Firas] Yes.

..you forget one little detail...no one GAVE or is giving the Kurds ANYTHING.

[Firas] You are completely wrong here. Many GAVE the Kurds. Money, intelligence, weapons, NO FLY zone, UN peace keeping forces, Oil for food shares, Tarrif proceeds. The giving started in the 60's and has yet to stop. (if you want references, please ask...)

...the Kurds have been fighting for YEARS...and years. They EARNED what they have...people didn't give them anything for their own sakes...the United States needed the Kurds to police the north...they have not the resources to go up there to fight..they can barely keep themselves safe in Baghdad.

...the Kurds EARNED the land they now hold...
[Firas] See above. Who is saying silly things now Farid? You obviously know very little about the history of the Kurdish struggle.

...then you would have set me straight...these comments of your's are a distraction and a ploy to change the subject...a claim use against me to make it seem I am the one doing it...how did the Europeans earn America? Who gave it to them..of whom did they DEMAND it? They TOOK it...as the Kurds have taken the land they now hold...and their theft is as legal and will be defended as tenatiously as the Europeans held on to their theft....

...then that applies when Saddam was in power as well. And when he WAS in power the Kurds and Shiia WEREN'T!
[Firas] Yes, it does apply when Saddam was in power, but the liklihood if you ask for Assyrian rights is you get hung as did Yosip youbert and Youkhanna.

...that's because there ARE no Assyrian rights. You have the rights other Iraqi citizens have...if the Kurds and Shiia could expect no special "rights" then neither could the Christians...besides which no one takes your claim to exclusive Assyrian nationhood seriously...if any Native American asked for "Indian Rights" to ANY piece of land...he might not get hung but he WOULD get killed by the FBI...as happened to several when they DID try back in the 70s.

Again, the oppurtunity to secure rights for Assyrians is higher with a new constitutional democratic system than with a dictator like Saddam.

...does that apply to the right to own whatever business they want...like liquor stores? Will that apply to the right to have picnics...to listen to the music of their choice...to wear what they wish...will women have the right to a full and free education...to work alongside men in any occupation they choose?

...if it isn't democratic at all then it can be changed just as easily to throw all Christians out of Iraq.
[Firas] It is not that simple Farid. "first order of business, I make a motion to to thorw away the constitution and use Shari'a law, all in favour ?"... The constitution will need to have provisions to protect it against such abuse. for example the requirements of a super majority on certain items of the constitution.

..WHAAT? The constitution has NO provisions to trump Sharia law...it is going to BE Sharia law...if not now than certainly when the Marines leave...can you IMAGINE how thrilled the Shiia are right now? saddam kept them from power and persecuted them for decades and NOW they rule!!! Do you think THEY are going to betray their own religious beliefs??? Would YOU do away with the most basic tenets of YOUR religion???

...You have not the numbers to stop a simple nor a super majority...do the very simple math...the Christians can do nothing in the new Iraq except leave.

...how will they improve after THIS inhumane and illegal war in which children were the prime target?
[Firas] No. Incorrect. Children are not the prime target for this war.

...do the math again...13 years of Sanctions affected children the MOST...can you not admit the obvious? It wasn't a thug this question was asked of but madelien Albright...she was asked if the death by starvation directly attributable to Sanctions of 5000 CHILDREN a months...and we're only refering to children under five...was okay...and she said it was acceptable. No other class of Iraqis sufffered MORE than children...as any idiot could have figured out...they were INDEED the target.

...no it isn't. It all depends on the goodwill of the dominant majority...
[Firas] There are two assumptions you may have to make such a conclsion and both are incorrect. (a) decision are based on simple majority. which is the not the case.

...lord you're dense...a "simple majority" means 51%...you have NOT the numbers to block a simple majority...you are not 51% of the population...you are barely 2%. A super majority would be two-thirds...you can NOT muster two-thirds of Iraqis on your side....and you have NOT enough votes to STOP a two-thirds majority.

(b) The major groups 9kurds, Shiites, sunnis) are united in their efforts to rid Iraq of Assyrians. Agian not the case.

...who said they were? But they can dominate the political field...that is the point...they will keep you in a tighter cage than you ever were in before.

...but YOU left when things were not this bad
[Firas] I left when I was 13 because Saddam started training camps for the Tala'i for 13-16 year olds to prepare for possible need in the Iraq Iran war which my parents wanted nothing to do with. I have never been back till last year and I plan to go back once a year if Iraq does not get another Saddam.

...what's the matter...didn't you want to FIGHT for your country? Imagine American parents leaving America to save their boys from a war in which America's life is at stake...not a pretty picture is it? Do you think you'll leave America the day America wants YOUR son?

...would you have waited it out...now? Would you stick around, with your children...and hope your theory gets implemented before your children die of malnutrition?
[Firas] As the examples I had given you earlier, yes, if I was there till now, I would stay. I would not stay in Faluja or Tikrit nor Baghdada. i would move to the Assyrian heartland and work with my poeple as I am doing now.

...you don't live in the Kurdish Heartland...there is no Assyrian heartland..but that's another issue...anyone making claims to land based on what HE says he is...claims dead and gone 2000 years ago, is challenged to say the least.

By the way, during my trip to Iraq, I did not see any in our Assyrian areas dying from malnutrition. Ofcourse, my experiences was limited and although I asked people during my visit to show me some, it still does not mean that there aren't any. Simply it is not as you portray it.

...were they starving when Saddam was there? Were there 50,000 less Christians there when Saddam was...and you STILL refuse to mention the over 27,000 Christian children killed OR Majdolin Younan's losses...seeing how you debate I can well believe that you simply look away when things don't go your way...

...when were you ever banned from our forum? When was anyone?

[Firas] Please do not use our people's struggle to settle some personal issues you have with the fact that you were banned.

...why personal? It's the principle...nothing personal.

The fact is, you were banned because I was getting tired of defending you to all those who were complaining about you. We all, including you, have far more important work to do than to cater to the 'Farid flavour of the week'.

...so...just COMPLAINTS are enough? Is THAT your notion of a democracy?

...wait to hear that same sentiment when Christians are banned in Iraq...or rather when their lives become so constrained OR a war demands their children...wait.

...the best bet for all of them is to follow YOUR example and get the hell out

[Firas] That is not for you to decide. Our Assyrian people in Assyria can make their own decisions. Your recommendation is as guilty as the recommendations to stay.

...recommending is NOT deciding...you certainly make recomendations...over 50,000 have agreed with me so far...and if more could, they'd be out of there tomorrow...that's what your "work" on behalf of the peoplke there amounts to...you'll call it "humanitarian" because you give them food and "hope"...but what it really is is making sure THEY stay...regardless of the fears THEY have for their children...you'll want them to stay and preserve "Assyria"...something your parents didn't bother with.

...why should they settle for less than you allowed yourself? Why must THEY suffer and die so YOU can have your theories?

[Firas] Here you go again. "they suffer and die so I can have a theory"!!!???? Come on, be serious Farid. As I mentioned, this is a personal decision that every Assyrian in Assyrian has to make. It is not for you and me to tell them to leave. Besides, following YOUR logic, they are suffering and dying so you can have a theory also...

....it's no secret you are all desperate to keep as many of them there as possible...and no secret that you visit but won't share their fate...your "work" amounts to making people do what you wouldn't...you don't lead by example...you just "help" them stay...as you "helped" make their lives hell.

Farid, despite your arrogant tone and insulting remarks (eg.
can I help it if you are brain dead?
You're so damn dull ...
No foreign power is going to protect your plump arses
...up your's...you arrogant twerp...
stick this in your craw and choke on it...

...as always you pick and choose...there were several ideas in there...but you always skip over those.

I find your ideas and debates enjoyable. However I cannot keep up with them due to lack of time. I cannot make time, not for this. Sorry, but this is my last reply to you. Please do not be offended.

...I am never offended...it is good to have you stick your neck out is all...we were trying to tell you all that this war of liberation would be a disaster for the Christians of Iraq especially...and now that it is...even though you find Christians thrilled at the destruction that has been visited on Iraq for its "crimes"...and even though you are grasping at straws...we will be around to watch as things get worse and worse...and on that day guess who you'll blame...anybody but yourselves.

..it is important to keep you banning me...you don't grasp it...but it is good. At the same time that you are hoping the Shiia will "protect" you in Iraq...guarantee your rights even though you are now an even more despised minority...you bow to pressure here in America, of all places, to remove a minority view, as you claim mine is. Keep that in mind as you look ahead, with blinders on, to a rosy future for a minority in Iraq...one which will also be the recipient of "pressure" applied against it in private.

...it was worth it to show the glaring contradiction in your thoughts and actions...in America you claim you must ban a minority viewpoint because of "pressure" brought to bear against you by your dominant majority...yet you look forward with "hope" and "faith" that NO such pressure will be brought to bear in Iraq against the minoirty Christians...the co-religionists of the very people bringing this misery to Iraq...just how is that supposed to work? How can YOU...in a free country, be brought to take away my right to free speech on your forum...yet the Shiia must NOT do the same to minority Christians in Iraq...how Firas?

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