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=> Re: response to Don....

Re: response to Don....
Posted by Don (Guest) - Sunday, January 8 2006, 5:46:51 (CET)
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Damnit Farid, post in one spot man! Thanks for the reply. I will try to respond to your 50 points again. Too bad it can't be done verbally, that would go much faster and wouldn't require typing in this tiny box.

Farid:
"...that you can be inspired by literally "nothing" is a miracle in itself. You and I and the rest of us are all archytypes...our kind has existed from the beginning of Time...there has always been the warrior, the person of peace, the one who is easily duped, the one who is too sharp for his own good etc. Had a person with your proclivities to believe in phantoms been born 500 years ago in China..or 700 yeats ago in Tahiti...or 2000 years ago in Assyria...or last year in France...he would think and react in exactly the same TYPES of ways.

My type has NEVER believed in miracles...not the cheap tricks people tell me of..like turning fish into wine, whatever. My kind seeks to UNDERSTAND. Your kind would have believed a god made some people get leprosy while others didn`t..he would have said the people who got the virus didn`t have enough faith in Mugwhump..or a chicken..or a totem pole..of Jesus. I would have said I didn`t know why some got leprosy and other`s didn`t...I`d say I was ignorant of such causes...I`d say that there MUST be a rational explanation..and I`d fight people like you who refused to allow scientific experimentation that, while it might a treatment and cure for Leprosy, would ALSO blow a hole in your pet notions of faith having been the determining cause."

-No, if we both lived in 1900 B.C., I as a citizen would probably want someone like you to be doing the scientific stuff since I inferred from your posts that you like science. I enjoy chemistry a lot but decided to go with Poli Sci over the hard sciences. If I were a "priest" of the temples, I wouldn't tell you that you can't use science and scientific methods to seek answers for the unexplainable. Here's another thing I believe Farid. I believe that science is just currently not at the level to where it can explain all things, but if it can, then I will believe what is really there. The thing with God is that I believe he initiates processes and he created the universe. However, after that, it is up to US to understand it and use it. The unexplainable miracles, I'm sure if science reached that point it could explain them, but my personal belief is that he allows it to happen because it is part of his creation. I do not sit and wait for him to explain all to me. I believe he gave me a brain and I have to go out and do the work to understand things.

Farid:
"3000 years ago you would have known nothing of Jesus...but your type would have been bowing down before some other god...because your kind NEEDS gods. My kind would have been saying "bullshit"...and if not directly exploring our physical worls for explanations, I would have been fighting off those who would us to maintain "faith". Faith is a catch-all phrase for enshrined ignorance."

You are correct about you and I being archetypes. You would make your lamassus and I might bow before a God. But don't think I would want science to grow. That's what made Assyrian civilization so great. That is probably how I would have thought then and that is how I think now. I'm happy there are doctors and medicine and all that. But if some doctor can't heal my mother and somehow she is unexplainably healed. I will thank God that either he or some force within this universe allowed her to somehow heal.

Farid:
"..are you NUTS? Not even the bloody Romans killed Christians anywhere near to the numbers they killed when they turned Christian! The Roman emperors merely asked all pagans to admit the supremacy of the emperor as a god..after that they could have any number gods...they could care less. There are letters extant freom Pliny the Younger to the emperor Hadrian in which he asks the emperor what should be done with these "Christoi"...the emperor replies that under NO circumstance should they be hunted down or even sought after...that if THEY make an isue of their new religion, they should be asked to light a atick of incense to the emperor, after which they should be allowed to go free and worship whatever other gods they choose...only if they adamantly refused to do so...should they be put to death...now compare that to what variety of absurd excuses Christians used to SEEK OUT and execute fellow Christians!"

Yes, you are correct. Western Christianity did do those things. In fact, during the Crusades even Palestinian Christians and non-Jew Christians living in Palestine/Israel went against the West and joined Salaheddin in fighting against the Christians.

Farid:
"...not true. The Assyrians never massacred whole populations as did the Christians...as did the Hebrew forebears of your Christ...your god ordered Joshua to go BACK and kill EVERY Midianite man woman child goat pet and fish..."even unto he that pisseth against a wall"...now I ask you, who in their right mind kills someone for pissing ANYWHERE!!!"

Damn man...I already told you. I don't believe every word in that book that they put together should be taken literally or was divinely inspired. I take some of it as actual history that occurred, some of it as heart-lifting material that gives people hope, and some of it as mere parables and proverbs. Then there is also a part of it that is full of hate and anger and allegations. What can I say? If it was up to me I would know which ones to choose and put together and I would also include a bunch of writings from Ashur, Ashur Banipal, Ahikar the Wise, Hammurabi, etc. And all of that would be inspiration for us to live our lives here on earth as well as we can and would inspire us to create new and better institutions and laws (if necessary). When I say "the hell with this world," you don't see my expression in type. It is one where I am saying I would love for the world to stop killing and just chill, but it's never going to happen. You will never see peace on this earth. We will try and try and try, but you said it yourself, there has been rape and pillage on this earth from the beginning. Your comment concerning why I was happy when my mother was healed if I didn't want to be on this earth misses my point. I do want her to be healed and am happy. At the same time, our personal life in the home is good. When I say "forget this world" I mean that you will never see the world as a whole be good. The good comes from friends and family and being together, recreation, etc. If you're talking about that and enjoying that, we do and I am happy that we do. But as a far a world where people can not kill each other and unload bombs on one another, it will never happen. EVER.

Farid:
"...from the moment Muhammad proclaimed his vision his Arab neighbors AND the Jews tried to kill him...he was ATTACKED first and had to fight for his life...and the Christians his army later killed were Christian MERCENARIES and the bloody soldiers of the Byzantine Romans...not villagers. When the Crusaders took Jerusalem they killed every Muslim man, woman and child and rounded up all Jews into their synagogue and burned them...a foretaste of what they would do them 1000 some years later...yet when Khalid Ibn Walid retook Jerusalem...he invited the Patriarch to come BACK..and toured the city with him as his guest, promising to rebuild all the damage and welcome ALL worshippers back in peace...rational and REAL historians, Europeans among them, say that the Ottoman Turks were the "Gentlemen of the Medieval Age"...the list of Christians barbarities, right up this current one in Iraq is way too long and well known to be seriously argued with."

Ok. What do you say about the verses in the Hadith which are the accounts/traditions of Muhammad. He kills people simply because they don't accept him as the Messenger of Allah (Areesella).

Farid:
...The Eastern Romans coveted Arabia...even the ancient Assyrians wanted to conquer it...Muhammad was able to inspire his people to only protect what they had, but to sally out and MEET the invading and encroaching Romans..who were from miles away in Greece and Italy...Islam DEFENDED itself against attack...and you should thank Muhammad for saving YOUR church...without his existance and the fighting capacity of his warriors the Byzantines would have conquered Iraq and killed you ALL as heretics. try to show a little gratitude.

Yes, I was actually going to make a point about that but you beat me to it. I am very grateful that that happened and am very aware of it. I have no problem with Muslims. And in response to another comment you made somewhere else, if I was "President" of "Iraq," I would never kick them out and institute Christianity as the state religion. That would be a mistake.

Farid:
...I`m sorry...but I fear me your facts are from Syriac sources...I don`t trust your church...it lies for a living, like they all do.

No, this is a Persian and Arab account. They are not Syriac sources. This is taught in schools in Iran.

Farid:
..no it isn`t. It`s an old game...there are several religious universities and publishing houses that print "neutral studies"...you`re a little new to all of this I think. There are valid studies of DNA and ethnicity...and they prove absolutely nothing except that Fascism and Xenophobia are alive and well and maybe even GENETIC.

Your last point is correct about such ideologies/states of mind still being alive. However, I can send you an article that abridges the study if you're too busy to read the book.

Farid:
..imagine then how the Native Americans feel who must watch this process in their OWN country..occupied STILL by people such as you...who are living on the stolen lands and over the bones of the indigenous people of THIS country....do you plan on "giving back" what is rightfully their`s? I thought not.

Yes. The Native American must feel like crap. However, even the Americas are not their indigenous lands. Science (specifically anthropology) will tell you they came from Asia (mostly Mongolia). If we want to be "ideal" about things it would go like this: Let the bombs and crap stop in the Middle East, let our country be called Assyria, let Muslims continue to live there but not try to invade our villages/cities and take our daughters (and vice-versa), and let these "Native Americans" have back their land. Not going to happen.

Farid:
...that`s up to you. It may also be that the language you speak that you call Assyrian...has never developed the vocabulary to allow anyone to deal in the modern world...while we all speak mostly kitchen Assyrian...our children need a lot more to get out there and get somewhere...that`s just the way history moves...there was a time when you would have been Sumerian and would have been pissed as hell that some dessert bastard named Sargon...who called HIMSELF "Great", who lived in TENTS...moved into YOUR civilized land and changed everything...you would have REFUSED to teach your children any new fangled language or become a part of the NEXT civilization that came along in ITS turn...get over it.

No that's what you're led to believe. Any word there is in English there is in Assyrian. We even followed the logical rules of roots and used them to create words for "newer" things like "car" and "computer." All we lack are the animal species (latin) and if I was a loser and wanted to spend my life doing it, we could easily translate all of those to Assyrian. The language does not lack, people do. If you want to say that about Assyrian, most people with a common level of education in Spanish need to borrow words when talking about technological things as well even though it is VERY EASY to find the logical translation of the word in Spanish.

Farid:
...you can come TOGETHER all you want...you can all scream with ONE voice that you DESERVE this and that...but this is not your bedroom..the world is NOT your mother...what you "deserve" is not what ANYONE gets..not unless you TAKE it and KEEP it..that is STILL the Law in international affairs...you can "get" nothing...you never will...no one has. The Basques can`t get Spain..the Catholics can`t get Ireland..the Seminoles can`t get Florida, even though they have in their possession a treaty SIGNED by the Congress and President Polk that Florida was to be given to them...they can do NOTHING..they have been to court and everything....you will NEVER get a Christlandia, surrounded by pissed as hell Muslims...never.

No, we don't want Christlandia. We just want autonomy in the regions heavily occupied by Assyrian Christians and MY personal request is that the country be called Assyria again like it was before 1926 before the British carved things up. I wouldn't kick people out unless they were crazed and wanted to start blowing things up.

Farid:
..if Jesus was about anything it was that ALL people are YOUR people.

Yes, but what kind of hypocrite or asshole would one look like if he went and provided food to his neighbor but not to his family first. Feed your family first and then the others.

Farid:
(That's part of the reason why I believe in the promised afterlife. Who the hell want this piece of crap of an earth?)-Don

.if you`re going to crap all over your room...don`t come complaining about the stench...this earth is paradise...how many places are untouched yet that when you walk in, you feel you are in a sacred presence...WE have made a hell of it...as we have made our bodies VULGAR to the point that we ONLy enjoy filth as lovely and divine sex. YOUR religion has taught that the things of the earth mean nothing...that, like Turlock, this earth is merely the waiting room to get into Heaven....well then STOP trying to live...go and DIE already and GET your eternal reward..leave the earth to those of us who understand that this is ALL we`re ever going to have...and want it to be protected and revered so more of our children can enjoy it."

The earth itself IS a paradise. But with people constantly dropping bombs on countries, invasions, massacres, and the list goes on...how do you expect one to continue to call it paradise? We humans DID ruin it. And it theoretically can be fixed but people will never stop hating and things WILL get worse.

Farid:
Your heaven is nothing more than a Hell..a hell you never even bother to think about. At least Muslims fill their`s with a FEW things humans find enjoyable on earth..but not you...you haven`t the vaguest idea of what your heaven contains...it`s easy to imagine a Hell...but a Heaven? It`s impossible...and I`ll tell you why, because the FIRST thing about your heaven, something you`re silly enough to think you`ll enjoy..is that it lasts FOREVER! Can you IMAGINE doing anything FOREVER? Take the thing you love most on earth...or that you can imagine..and then imagine doing that for a year...for 20 years...for 200 years...for ten thousand years. Are you people CRAZY? Eternity is HELL...all by itself...doesn`t matter WHAT you do there. Not even a Muslim`s virgins are going to STAY virginal! So long as humans are taught to hunger after an eternal life, they will continue to ruin the one they actually have..as well as the earth that could be SUCH a heaven to us...if we deserved it.

No actually I have a little more than the vaguest idea.

Farid:
...whoa....I meant would you sacrifice your shot at eternal life by rescusing Jesus? remember, he HAD to be killed..that`s what his "dear father" demanded...we Assyrians didn`t have those kinds of parents either..it was the Hebrew way to slit the throat of a first born son, the most precious possession a father could have in their culture...in order to IMPRESS yahwe with the seriousness of their situation...if the rent came due and the sheepshit hillside hadn`t produced it, the father would slit his son`s throat to get some advantage from THAT sort of god.

That's not true. There was a way to heaven before Christ but it was to those who followed their respective laws of the land if they did not believe in "God." If they did, they followed him as best as they could and they were judged according to that. With Yeshua, all you had to do was accept Him and you would have eternal life. If you never learned about Yeshua today, you still have your own laws which you must follow as a citizen and you will be judged accordingly. So, if I could have and he wanted to be saved, yes I would have.

Farid:
...that`s all the story of Jesus is..the bible is one long list of serial murders...wholesale. The so-called NEW part of it is merely an in-depth look...up-close and personal, at ONE such crime...but only one of millions.

Yes, and that's why you must learn to take some things with a grain of salt. I explained to you how I view the bible and that's what had saved me from the fanaticism of Christian fundamentalists who are ready to kill anyone who doesn't believe the way they believe.

Farid:
(Nobility and righteousness is when you do what you do not just for those you love, but for those that don't care for you or even hate you.)-Don

"...no. That is foolishness. It was institutionalized by church officials and their bosses, the kings and emperors because it`s SUCH a good crock of shit to serve your subjects...so that while you grind their faces in the sust, they "forgive" you...a prison warden couldn`t have dreamed up a better "morality" than that."

Our points don't contradict each other. I agree with the treat one as you would like to be treated. Say you have a person that hates you, and one who doesn't. If I wanted them to treat me well, I have to treat them well. If they don't treat me well then that's their business. I will forgive them but I will not keep contact with such a person. It existed before Jews as well.

Farid:
"..then you`d have a battle on your hands with all those who would resent the change...your presidency would BEGIN with an act of provocation...verily you are NOT among the peace makers."

Oh yes. They really hated the change that came when they called it "Iraq." They beat that word into their chests like it's gold and they have been since 1926. You keep making exceptions for that country to be called Assyria - almost as if you don't want it to be.

Farid:
"..it`s easy to die for something...you Christians have made a quest of suffering and losing...I wonder why then you all complain when you DO lose? Jesus asked you follow his example..well, go On then...follow him right up to that place of execution...go ALL the way. But none of you do. Instead you pull out deeds to land and proooves that you are owed this and that. Did Jesus do that? He SAID...your kingdom is in HEAVEN...go and GET IT!"

Complaining is normal for all humans. Get over it. You will continue to hear (not from me) but from everyone. And no, the kingdom is not just in heaven. The Lord's prayer says "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If I want to be idealistic concerning this specific subject about the earth being our paradise - like you're being - I can be. But there won't be peace here. Call me up when there is. We can have a drink together to celebrate if you'd like.

Farid:
"...try LIVING for something for a change."

I expect the worst and hope for the best. That is how I am not let down yet I don't lead myself to depression. "Try living for a change?" I am. I am attending school and hoping to do well in life and to do well to others. I'll strive to achieve those things that will make this world a better place but with all the forces you see preventing that, it will be quite difficult.

Farid:
"You aren`t afraid...that`s the best thing about you...you aren`t so damn shakey in your beliefs as to jump out of your skin at every challenge."

Thank you for noticing these differences. It also helps to not listen to everything that any one single person wants to tell me. I'll do it myself, I don't need no help.

Farid:
"...we have great faith in the reclamation of your soul. many times in our past we have been occupied or taken over by foreign people and ideas...we Assyrians have been left wandering in a Christian wildereness where we`re expected, by Jews, to behave in ways we NEVER behaved before...Christianity did NOT save us...we saved their CHURCH...but the price is unacceptable any longer...let them save their own arse."

Just out of curiosity, you do believe in reclamation of a soul or no? You don't make it clear whether you do or not.


Regards.



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