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=> Re: response to Don....

Re: response to Don....
Posted by Don (Guest) - Wednesday, January 4 2006, 6:22:17 (CET)
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Shlama.

Farid:
"...since the majority of the Jews who had the benefit of seeing and hearing Jesus preach were unimpressed by his message, it would argue that no one else was much impressed hearing it second and third hand years later. The eastern church has its own mythology..or lies. It says that everywhere it went people converted...where? In China? In Japan? in India? There are a few Christians in these places..about what you`d get if a close knit bunch of converted Jews screwed each other only for 2000 years...the next lie is that there were really millions and millions BUT...those nasty Muslims killed them all...give us a break! They can find a lone grave...where are all those millions and millions of skeletal remains?"

-That's a fallacy. You can't say because this is true for these people it is also true for these people. Like I said, I don't hate Muslims - I have Muslim friends, but you're saying Muslims didn't kill our people. Who massacred Mar Shimon Benyamin and 110 of his guards? I know very well what happened because that is my family and it did not happen hundreds or thousands of years ago for me to sit there and question it. And then what about the document of "Peace" that was signed by MUHAMMAD and our Patriarch and bishops? What happened before one of the Assyrian massacres roughly a hundred or so years ago? The Turks destroyed the document of peace between us and the Muslims and massacred us. I'm not saying they did it in the true spirit of Islam because obviously that refutes the purpose of that treaty, but we were not killed by Buddhists in this case...they were Muslims and this is close enough in history for the word to have come down to me unscathed. And a lot of the Muslims I know admit that such things happened and are sorry that they did. Regardless, that's not a part of my main point and is out of the scope of the original conversation. Besides, it's in the past. Today, I strive to make friends and make peace with all and so did my parents. Simply being Muslim or Jew or catholic or atheist doesn't mean I'm not going to be friends with the person. Yeshua himself said to also love those who hate you, and that the publicans show favor to those who show them favor as well, so what makes them so righteous. Assyrians before Yeshua believed this as well. It's not my fault people don't follow those ideas and go and kill people in the name of whatever.

Farid:
"...and "restaurant" in our language simply means restaurant...it is a French word that`s entered the English language...it doesn`t make the Brits FRENCH. The Hebrews and Egyptians used Aramaic too...and Aramaic is the language of ARAM...not Assyria."

-No, there is no such thing as an "aramaic" language. There WAS an aramaic dialect. After posting this message I will send you an email of an abridged dictionary of the Assyrian "Akkadian" language and then the Eastern neo-Assyrian and Western neo-Assyrian languages which are nearly the same exact thing.

Farid:
"...Ashur is not and never was the ONE and ONLY God...not even yahwe says he is the ONLY god. Ashur was god when there were MANY gods and respect was shown to them ALL...there are STILL many gods, only we donīt respect them all because we this mindless fetish, born of being crowded into empires where ONE ruler ruled over several people he never heard of or saw, of insisting there MUST be only one god...there are MANY gods today..alive and doing well...and that is as it SHOULD be...a god, to be real MUST grow from the experience of his followers..it is simply arrogance and a devotion to brutal force to say there must be ONE god...why must there be?

...Monotheism has made people murderously intolerant..that is the only gift it has given us..it was implemented by Tyrants who insisted on their RIGHT to rule over the lives of strangers...to force THEIR ways on everyone...Christianity has KILLED the natural spirituality of millions of people round the world..reducing them to caricatures of their former selves while halting their natural progression."

-Ah ha. Thank you. Now I know what you think. We weren't comparing apples to apples, but apples to spaghetti. I'm not saying what you think is wrong. It is the truth to you and I'm happy you're unlike some others and didn't disrespect me for my beliefs; I respect you for yours (really). I have found my truth. We can't compare ideologies because we don't have the same fundamental idea of God/Ashur.

Farid:
"...it is easy, as well as the height of hypocrisy, to call everyone who doesn`t agree with you "misguided"...just because someone does not agree with YOU does not mean they are wrong...this thinking of yours is similar to what an emperor would think...and it was emperors who spread Christianity."

-No, I didn't say people worshipping in gods makes them bad people. That's their way of life...their culture. Good for them. The "misguided" people I was referring to were the translators who took our tablets, not knowing jack about culture, and proceeded to call our God, gods. And I'm noticing something about your messages to me. You're putting words in my mouth. It's as if you believe I have hidden or underlying meanings in my words intended to crap on everybody in the world. Get over it Farid. You act as if anybody that talks to you is a proselytizer or something and they're coming to get you or make you christian. What you're doing is projecting. It seems like you've engaged in similar conversations so much you're just waiting to hear the same things from me. Did you get robbed by a priest or something? Like I said, one reason I engaged conversation with you was in hope that maybe you could not say something like "F so and so" with expletives aimed at central figures of people's beliefs. And since you've been nice enough to do so, I really don't have anything else to say concerning religion. I usually don't walk up to people and question their beliefs since most conversations about religion or politics usually end in arguments for most people.

Farid:
"...since the people who HAVE all those names would disagree with you...let it slide...this proves nothing..it is only more of your attempt to foist your beliefs on others...YOU are saying THEY have "different" names for ONE god..they donīt see it that way...they certainly wouldnīt accept your notion that what they`re really praying to is Ashur...this is YOUR fetish..and like I said, momotheisn has made YOU murderously certain that YOU have the truth...let people have their own gods...stop renaming them...with whatever language. We also have a word for garbage in our language..granted it isn`t the SAME word in every language, but it means GARBAGE...which is exactly what this "argument" of your`s amounts to...everything that is a truth JUST happens to come out of YOUR mouth. What a fortunate coincidence for you!"

-Some will agree and some will disagree, good for them. It's funny how I know so many Muslims that agree though. And no...I'm not murderously certain that everything that comes out of my mouth is truth. You made that assumption. I said it's the truth FOR ME. That's why I get along with people of other faith or no faith or different ideology. They have what's right FOR THEM, and I have what's right FOR ME. The thing with you in the first reply was that you also seem certain you've discovered certain truth by crapping on everything else. What's true is true for you, not for me or everyone else. That was the main point I was trying to illustrate.

Farid:
"...you are good at sophistry....all your tribe are...that is...you are good at SEEMING wisdom. No doubt you have the capacity to go all the way, but not till you stop expending energy on such trifles and concentrate your mental power...till then you`re stradling two concepts which are in grave contradiction..."

-No. I never claimed to be all-wise. You just associate me with all the other people you debate with on the net that may or may not attempt to do so.

Farid:
"...like most Hebrews he was woefully ignorant of the world outside his borders. Besides which...you have no way of knowing WHAT he said. I`ll bet you`ve spent more hours going over what`s in the bible..a book written by NONE of the people mentioned in it...but rather written down by the docks in Alexandria by some Jews a couple of hundred years later...or others who never met or knew or heard the voice of the people THEY told you said this and that...it`s interesting how many of you pour over that compilation of butcheries and nonsense but IGNORE the thouands of tablets written by OUR PEOPLE in their OWN hand!!! All over the world in museums and vaults the words of our OWN people have been locked away...not words written by someone else 300 years AFTER the event...does this square with your contention that Ashur and Jesus are one? You don`t even know what Jesus said but are SO hot to believe what other`s tell you...while at the same time you have NO interest in what Assyrians ACTUALLY said. Go...and sin no more."

-Like I said, that's what you believe. I actually spend a lot of time trying to get my hands on anything that's "ancient." I've recently started spending time trying to read different types of cuneiform so I can get my hands on some tablets and do translating myself...instead of some white cat in Kansas who rewrites our history from his room without knowing a word of ancient Assyrian. Again, you are projecting because you perceive my one discussion with you to be the end-all be-all of discussions between you and I and to be the only thing I know.

Farid:
"...Gee...I wonder who wrote the "new studies"?
..when you come up with a source that contradicts the bible...which says they were SLAVES...you should cite it...or is your word good enough for everything?"

-It was on the history channel on a special concerning Egyptians and also Jews. What, the Jews are now contradicting their own book because now they're strong and can refute things they feel lower themselves? Again, you're projecting. I don't care what beef you had with Aprim or whoever else you chat with on the net. I'm not them. I never said I know everything and my words come with a seal of approval that says it's good enough.

Farid:
"...and the only thing between Mexico and The United States is that river called the Rio Grande...do YOU see any significant difference between the two shores?"

-You're introducing so many new things into the original discussion. That's why I can't answer everything, it takes too much time. Before Euros came here, there was no US and Mexico. It was inhabited by various tribes of people who were later called "Native Americans" and even "Indians." What does this have to do with the discussion?

Farid:
"...the Jews got NOTHING on lock...they have been driven from pillar to post since the beginning...the most abused people in the WORLD and at no time more so than when the Christians took off after them..and finally caught them 60 years ago."

Hahahahaha. That's hilarious. "..and finally caught them." Hahaha, it's like you're referring to a fly. Side question: Have you read Saddam's book where he equates them?

Farid:
..would you have a problem with a Christian being a Muslim? If you are a monotheist you can`t be Assyrian AND Christian...that`s TWO gods...you have to choose."

-I don't care what people believe as long it doesn't hurt me or others. It means nothing to me. Polytheistic, monotheistic, atheistic, I don't care.

Farid:
"..how come Jesus has a personal message for YOU...what happened to Ashur...has he nothing to tell you...except to listen to Jesus?"

-You said yourself many of the things Yeshua said like love were around before and practiced by Assyrians. I do read things written by the ancient Assyrians as I stated above. I follow them.

Farid:
"...my mother has cancer...right now. I thank her doctors for treating her and I would DAMN an all powerful god for giving her the cancer....if I had the power to heal I wouldn`t walk into a ward at a children`s hospital and heal ONE child out of thirty...I`d heal them ALL and I`d blast cancer off the face of the earth. A son of mine also had cancer and his pious grandmother dared say, in my presence, "praise to god for curing him"...at which I said back to her, "you can thank the DOCTORS for healing him..and DAMN god for sending us cancer"! We never got along."

I'm sorry to hear that. You've got good doctors. Only you paid for the treatment and my mother didn't. No doctor was able to help her concerning that. And about you healing everyone if you could...I would do the same.

Farid:
"...doctors don`t have the power to invent cancers...if they found they`d done so inadvertantly, they`d rush to stop the damage.,..but not God...he invented all these plagues and THEN wants the praise when a doctor fights HIM to kill a cancer. This is childish stuff. There are many things I can`t explain...if everyone who touched themselves would be healed as your mother was...who WOULDN`T do it? There are many unexplained things in Life...as there were 20,000 years ago..and the people back THEN chose to believe in spirits and demons who healed some and ignored others...but this isn`t 20,000 years ago and I`m NOT a Hottentot! Although we still can`t explain much, we know BETTER than to dance around a totem pole howling at the moon."

-No but we have corporations and governments that favor corporations who feed us BS chemical foods rather than natural stuff simply because it makes them money.

Farid:
"..and your`s is that of a Jew and mine is that of an Assyrian. It is YOUR religion that roams the world telling people it is the ONLY true one...Assyrians never did that...religion has degenerated since then, it`s become a tool of imperialism and absolutism...the Assyrians were NEVER like that. When they conquered, they made room for all new gods..they knew how to respect people and their own cutlures and gods especially."

-The actions of individuals do not account for the actions or words of the originators or of the whole.

Farid:
"...these words are used by Christians all the time..usually when refering to the people from OUR part of the world."

-The actions of individuals do not account for the actions or words of the originators or of the whole.

Farid:
"...exactly...every family burns out in time...every empire peaks and then slides back...there is no longer a Spanish Empire..or Roman Empire or British Empire...this is normal. No People can carry the entire burden for long."

(No group of people in their right mind would let go of something that great after so many years.)-Don

"..they didn`t let go...it was taken from them because they became complacent...and because the tribes surging at the borders of the civilized centers were ever growing..it`s been the pattern in history."

(And even if they civilized the world just to civilize it and give it a gift and then withdraw, they wouldn't ALSO give up their own country.)-Don

"..they didn`t. For whatever reason, most of them converted eventually to Ialam and built the NEXT great empire...the Islamic Empire centered in Baghdad...ten feet from Babylon and all the world away from Mecca....the Sumerians were once overcome by a dessert tribe...you may have heard of Sargon The Great...it happened all the time. The descendants of the Assyrians and others are still in Iraq...which is nothing more than Uruk..and they will survive this present set of barbarians too."

-OK, either they fall or they didn't. Make up your mind. Also, Sargon was not an Arab...we was called Sargon Agidu, or Agida (english Sargon of Akkad). And even though the exact site of Akkad is unknown, it is believed that it certainly existed north of Ur closer to present-day Baghdad. You are correct about the descendents of Assyrians living in Iraq...but not all of them are ethnically Assyrian nor would care to be called that...even if they are Muslims and are really Assyrian. In fact, only tribes of the Shiites in Iraq have really stepped up to call themselves Assyrians. Not all Shiites do and Sunnis have never cared to call themselves Assyrians, especially the Tikritis who were converted to Islam roughly 180 years ago.

Farid:
"...it says no such thing...people invent gods..not the other way around. Man created god in HIS image..anything else is a gross insult to the deity..you can thank Twain for that. The Assyrians CREATED their god, not the other way around...Ashur grew out of US...That`s why he inspired us so. It`s the way with EVERY god...that`s why it`s so wrong to impose a foreign god on a People..you kill their spirit...you kill their imagination..you kill their inspiration...but you get better subjects."

-As I said further up, thanks for letting me know that's how you think. There is a fundamental difference in our idea/concept of God. Even if I did not believe in Yeshua and I was let's say Muslim, we really could not compare ideologies because you believe humans created gods while I believe God created us. Yours is a material notion while mine is a scientifically unprovable notion. That's why I said it's apples to spaghetti. I'm not crapping on your for believing what you believe, it's just that our ideas on this are too different.

Farid:
"If you`re going to give me the tired old argument that since Islam was born in Arabia, ANY Muslim anywhere in the world must be an ARAB...then I`ll tell you any Christian anywhere in the world is an ISRAELI...because Christianity was born in Israel...does that make any sense to you?

-Islam was born in Arabia and flourished in Assyria. MANY Assyrians coverted to it, yet instead of still being called Assyria, those British came and called it Iraq in 1926, after the city called Uruk. Between the 700s and early 1900s, the most Assyrians converted to it, the most Iraq, or really Assyria became called an "Arab" nation. I don't care the religion is attributed to Muhammad. Once again you're projecting by thinking that's something that bothers me. I just don't like that we had to be renamed. You keep saying "why you gotta rename Ashur" but you don't care we were renamed to Arab.

Farid:
"...very few Arabs came out of Arabia to conquer BetNahrain..and there were Arabs already there who were NOT Muslim...the majority of Muslims in later years were converts to Islam....for Islam is much closer to the Assyrian experience than Christianity is....when Assyrians saw the conquering Muslim army they saw something they KNEW and felt comfortable with..to get back on horseback, grab a sword and go conquer and create another empire...whereas the Christians on their knees eating dust must have been a strange sight indeed."

-Yes, the "Arabs" creeping into Assyria was a phenomenon that was slowly occurring even slightly before Muhammad. However, they went by tribal names, not the name "Arab." Assyrians gave Arabs language, gave them architecture, math, science, everything. That's the only reason the Islamic conquest prospered. And most of the helpers of Islam were not non-Christian Assyrians, they were Assyrians of the Church of the East. For evidence of this, read the books by W. Montegomery Watt who speaks extensively on Islam and detailed how civilization was given to Arabs and Islam via the Assyrians of the Church of the East (the incorrect term nestorian is sometimes used). They could have come through with all the swords and horses they wanted to, but if we didn't give them water and all the things needed for society, Islam would have been nothing today.

Farid:
"...they don`t, Iraq has NEVER denied its Assyrian roots...NEVER. You`re just angry because they ALSO attribute the last 1400 years and the magnificent empire and culture they built to their inspiration under MUHAMMAD..this is what drives you Christians crazy...yet you don`t mind at all when Sargon the Great or Hammurabi rides out of the dessert and conquers our homeland..and mixes his blood and beliefs ands makes something even greater...Assyria as an empire even, didn`t die in 600 BC...it took a long break...as had happened before in dark times...and re-emerged with the advent of a youthful new faith ALSO from the dessert, brought by a vigorous and energetic new people, ALSO from the dessert...the SAME desserts Sargon and Hammurabi came from...and the greatest civilization of the Medeival World was born...and took Assyrian and Persian and Babylonian art and culture and science and technology all across Europe to Spain..from which it eventually spread to the savage Christians of Europe AND was taken across the sea by the Spaniards...who had 700 years worth of Arab/Mesopotamian blood and culture in their veins, to the New World."

-Oh really? Have you seen the Iraqi constitution. "This country is an Arab country." They are also a part of the Arab League. Part of their rhetoric is that all those lands have forever been occupied by Arabs. Man please, northern Africa was African. Now they consider themselves Arab? Just like you don't like religion forced on you, I don't like ethnicity forced on me.

Farid:
"...of course it happened...those two rivers ALWAYS flood...so does the Nile. The pissant Jordan..which is hardly a "river"...couldn`t flood if every Hebrew pissed in it at the same time!"

-That shows you do not know what I am saying. I was referring to the long Ice Ages followed by melting of the continental ice and then melting of the polar ice caps. Also, every 400,000 years or so, the earth aligns itself with one of two stars. What is called the "north star" is actually one of two. That partially contributes to the change in earth's temperature. Other conditions also affect that. When the polar ice caps melt completely, the "pissant" Jordan doesn't just flood, much of the whole earth does. I'm talking sea levels hundreds of feet above the land.

Farid:
"...I am seeing my mother healed...I saw my son healed...BUT...I have seen MILLIONS killed for no good reason...let your god take credit for all of THEM too...and I`ll give him credit for your mother."

-You must have good doctors. Doctors weren't able to do jack for my mother. She was healed, and there was no several thousand dollar bill to pay either. Faith did it.

Farid:
"..if, every time you see something YOU can`t explian rationally on your road through Life, you fall down to your knees and worship a god...you`re not going to get very far. You should have fallen to your knees at the sight of a blade of grass glowing green in the sun...and never moved since."

-Actually, I do. I thank God for whatever little thing I can. I don't pray to him only when things are bad, I also pray when things are good. No statues were ever able to do good for me and they sure didn't inspire me either.

Farid:
"...because you`re going to have to kill a whole new bunch of people to do it...empires and even countries are old hat...what is an ethnicity worth any more? Who can even define it? There was a time when building empires and even countries out of city-states was necessary or there could be no progress...but those sorts of individulaized feelings of identity will DESTROY peace and civilization today..the ancient Assyrians were never bounded by Betnahrain...they learned from everyone, everywhere and they went everywhere...the world is my Assyria...we were at the forefornt then...this attitude will keep there..it is most BACKWARD for us to start running after a country and border now...that`s way too old fashioned for an Assyrian...we were always progressive and today nationality is REGRESSIVE."

-Look around you. What peace? What peace was there before Christianity. And afterwards was the same thing only the killings are greater because the populations are greater and the means for war are more advanced. You seem to have no problem with Islam starting its new civilization. That required killing, even the Qur'an details the battles. There is a place near Nisibin (I think) where mass graves have been uncovered. Over 700,000 dead bodies of Assyrians and Persians. Do you just pick and choose which massacres you want to hear about. Ethnicity can be defined: Read Dr. Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Civilization of the World in which he and his team conducted DNA tests of the various ethnicities of the world. You'll be surprised by their findings. And that's not religion, it's science.

Farid:
"...you don`t have to worry about...go ahead and teach them...who`s stopping you? Christians in Iraq were free to do anything anyone else was...except for the one thing that is illegal everywhere, in America too...and that is, to preach SEDITION..to call the present government of ANY country on earth "illegitimate" or "usurpers" or "illegal" or "immoral"...is to invite retaliation...to preach that a country really belongs to YOU..or any part of it belongs to ANY minority..is a crime EVERYWHERE...short of that, Christians have always been welcome and free in Iraq..."

-No, actually I do have to worry about it. I might be able to teach my children. But all this time in a foreign land could mean they will forget their roots and throw away Assyrian for only English. And I'm not saying know only Assyrian. I personally like language and enjoy learning several. But with the way this country is...most people are headed to be uni-lingual and only learn english...either that or with the pace of things maybe spanish.

Farid:
"..they also said, "swallow two crocodiles and call me in the morning"...times change. Today we`re in increasing danger of losing our planet...a person has to have a planet FIRST..before he can have a home to put it on."

-Usually, it goes like this. If you can't help your family, you can't help your country. We Assyrians can't even come together to get a piece of land and you want us to worry about the world? You know what? The hell with the world. All that money these people steal from the middle east in oil and all the money they figure out how to screw people out of with their marketing schemes and their constructing life to be like a rat race...let THEM use the money to make this world a better place. I'll do as much as I can FOR EVERYBODY w/o difference but I have my own people to worry about, too. That's part of the reason why I believe in the promised afterlife. Who the hell want this piece of crap of an earth? From its beginning it has been filled with war and murder. Call this place paradise? Please. Why fight to live if we're living to die?

Farid:
..and I ask you again...if it was up to YOU, personally...and you could have SAVED Jesus...but sacrificed YOUR right to an eternal life in doing so...remembering that he taught you the VALUE of self-sacrifice...would you sacrifice YOUR eternal life for the life of Jesus? You really should try to answer all points put to you and not cherry pick..we have sharp readers..they notice."

-You better believe it Farid. If I could have, I would have. And not just for Yeshua, not just for my family, or anyone from my belief, but for Muslims and atheists and everyone else, too. Nobility and righteousness is when you do what you do not just for those you love, but for those that don't care for you or even hate you.

Farid:
..I worry a great deal for my homeland...for IRAQ...and for ALL the people. We already HAVE a country..and like most it has several people pulling in all sorts of directions...an Assyria would be a madhouse...a Fascist State of the worst kind filled with whacky notions of PURE BLOOD and TRUE RELIGION with people being damned and banned and deleted and thrown out left and right. We have Iraq...let`s cherish it."

-If I was President of Iraq I would reinstate it with its original name. I wouldn't kill people just because they forced their way in or just because they live there and they're not my believe or something.

Farid:
"...I can respect what is Reasonable...it is NOT reasonable to me for someone to say he loves Jesus...and is GLAD he suffered and was KILLED (he didn`t just "die") for HIM...when I heard that as a kid I reacted in horror...what had someone seen in ME that made them think I would accept..or REJOICE at the idea of being given a great gift at SUCH a price? This is a religion of death, not Life..it is a religion of hatred where people confuse what they hate with Love...you have bundled murder and "life ever after" all together and it has distracted you beyond words...beyond rational words."

-I'm kind of tired of talking about religion really...but I will say this last thing Farid. If I had to die for my family to live, or for inhabitants of my country to live, or for the world and all its inhabitants to live, then I'm a dead mofo. And sorry, I didn't get to respond to 100% of your points or your other post until now, but I'm very busy and can't spend too much time on the internet as time flies when one gets on it.

I also want to say that this conversation was a pleasure, really. I think out of all the debates I've had on the internet, this was the most interesting and you were respectful to me. Thank you. I got love for you man.


Regards.



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