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=> Re: since, on any given day...

Re: since, on any given day...
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Friday, December 30 2005, 15:32:43 (CET)
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>-Well, that's a great analogy I must say. Only with the Donald Trump story, he never healed anyone, never died and resurrect himself, etc.

...what can I say...if you`re going to believe what every Jew fisherman said 2000 years ago...and tell me that men who go fishing NEVER tell lies...well, it`s difficult to have a real discussion on such topics...let`s just say that you are very willing to believe some things.


But I really can't press that on you since I don't know how you think. Perhaps you believe that people can heal themselves and it can actually be scientifically explained but humans are currently not at the point where they can explain it. That would be a good point too, I can ponder that.


..itīs very easy to explain...many of our problems, even physical ones, come from diseased minds...and the Church is the expert at infecting people with hobgoblins and then coming back the next day to offer a "cure"....what would you say to a doctor who infected you anmd then wanted you to pay him for curing you?
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>Pancho's Quote:
>"...as far as recalling anything, I recall that the bible is a one sided story of the Jews with a bit about one of their countless Messiahs tacked onto the end..it is not an impressive source or a creditibale one for any serious conversation. Many many people have advocated peace and non-violence. Jesus was a good man...one of many millions who`ve been put to death. No more, no less."
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>-Well, you're correct about that. The compilers of the "bible" did throw out all the Assyrian writings and turn it into their book. They did throw out the book of Khnukh, Ashur, Ahikar The Wise, etc. I don't take the book as a whole to be the truth and the only truth, and I don't pick and choose either. What tradition has taught me is that certain of the writings are parallels, parables, etc. while others are less figurative and while others are completely literal. And then others are complete rip-offs (i.e. 10 Commandments being a condensed version of the Hammurabi's Code). And then I won't even get into the disagreement between sects and Churches as to what books should be in the bible. For (1) example, the Church of the East did not and still has not officially accepted the book of Revelation because it is clear that greeks/westerners tampered with it. We also don't (some misguided people do now days) believe that everything was created in 7 days. There must be some reason used in that, no?

...as long as you`re willing to be reasonable, tell me what sense it makes to demand that people maintain faith in a Jewish Messiah...but damn them for keeping faith with Ashur? Why is it GOOD to believe in and be loyal to a Jew god...and also GOOD to have left that foolish god Ashur? Should people go shopping around for their gods? The Jews never lost faith in that butcher of a god of theirs...why did we supposedly lose faith in Ashur and switch over to THEIR god?
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>You're correct about the message being stated before. Ashur stated that message to us. Over many years it was perverted. Yeshua came to renew it.

...I`m sorry...but the pupil did not teach the master. That is not only absurd but an insult. Ashur taught Jesus, not the other way around. There is absolutely nothing new or profiound in the message of Jesus...nothing except the idea that HE was the longed for Jewish Messiah...and Ashur never had need of a Jew Messiah...and neither did his people until THEY became Hebrews.

...Jesus did not invent love...there were kind and loving people in Nineveh when the Hebrews were sacrifing their first born sons...David, the petty "king" was a cut throat, a brigand, an extortionist, a faithless friend and an adulterer...even his son tried to kill him...to present these people and the many other thugs in the line of Jesus as somehow OUR teachers is absurd.


I believe that Yeshua was Ashur.

...I can`t see what basis you have for that...except you can`t bring yourself to admit that you`ve been hornswaggled and are hoping to ease Ashur back in by changing his name, identity and purpose...Jesus was the JEWISH Messiah..his followers were all Jews..his mother and father and god were all JEWS...his followers folowed him because they believed he was the Jew Messiah...you had to be a Jew in order to be a Christian, for the first 70 years or so...everything about the religion smacks of Judaism...why do you feel you`ve elevated Ashur by bringing him down to such a level? Assyrians never needed salvation..they provided it for themselves...the Hebrews, knowing their dismal history, their inability to build aroad or a toilet KNEW they needed divine rescue...what has any of this to do with the Assyrians?

The Eastern Church initially did as well. Why would Abgar Okama (the Assyrian king) have believed in him

..thye Abgar story is an open insult to Ashur. UIt claims that an Assyrian could get no relief from our god...and had to turn to a Jew to get it...what does it say except that Ashur lost his power but a Jew had the power? Besides...what kind of a spiritualņ person are you if you dump your god because he can`t cure your headache...how come Assyrians are praised for enduring EVERYTHING for the sake of Jesus...and in the same breath EXTOLLED for having lost faith in Ashur?

(and by the way, that was not a biblical writing)? Why did the Assyrian predicters (usually most people refer to them as Magi) predict his birth for years before he was born?

...these are pleasant fairy tales..all the prophecy in the bible was written well AFTER the event. No Hebrew predicted anything...hge couldn`t even bake bread but ate bugs instead...while in Nineveh recent discoveries, not fables, have shown we had 300 DIFFERENT recipes for bread alone!

These people were Assyrians and for lack of another term were Ashur-ists (of the belief of Ashur). Yeshua was also living in the Galilea area - the place where we know Assyrians lived and still live. It seems fitting that Ashur himself would want to live amongst his own people. I think the reason he preached to the Hebrews first is because they were the ones that needed the change first.

...you are bending over backwards to accomodate the Hebrews...that you should need to work so hard to "make Ashur Jesus" says everything about what years of this Hebrew bilge have done to you. There is nothing to fel ashamed in accepting Ashur ALL the way...you donīt have to wrap him a matzoh meal to make him digestible.
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>Pancho's Quote:
>"...the only significant one I see is that eastern Christians are more than likely descendats of the first Jews to believe in Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah. I find it very difficult to believe that the civilized inhabitabnts of the Persian Empire and every other advanced civilization back then dumped their refined cultures at mention of a Jewish Messiah...some few individuals maybe...but hardly the entire power structure and population."
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>-I was really saying that Eastern Christianity is so different because it was comprised mostly of Assyrians. That's why the early Church in and of the East was exactly the same in belief as Ashurism.

..it is an insult..and unprecedented too..to say that the highly refined and accomplished people of Assyria all of a sudden dumped ther god and culture of their glory to adopt a Jewish Messiah. That has never happened anywhere on earth...both churches claim that all it took was the SOUND of the message of Jesus, delieverd by one barefoot itinerant beggar and whole cities and peoples left the ways of their ancestors, the religions they and their parents were born in, their children raised in...and all to follow the WORD of a Jew from a barren hillsidew...that is absurd.

We know damn well what the modern church did in the New World, that`s HALF the planet..no one there left their own gods for Jesus...they were murdered into Jesus...the Aztecs and Africans and Incas and Native Americans did NOT "convert" to Jesus..they were killed into him and the orphans stolen to be brainwahsed by the Church. This is attested to by several independent sources.

Even the Hebrews who heard Jesus first hand, were mostly not impressed...the eastern church is made up of the descendants of the first Jews to turn Christian..who were all chased out of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD...they were welcomed into pagan lands because we already had and accepted LOTS of gods...they tried to evangelize and were left alone to do until they broke laws, after which they were "persecuted"...at NO time did they manage to convert any but afew indivdiuals...neither in Persia in China, Japan or India were there ever MILLIONS of converts...the only place there were millions of Christian converts was where ARMIES went also and FORCED obedience to Caesar and then the Pope...your church pretends there were MILLIONS who left their "evil ways" at the mere MENTION of eternal salvation and the rest of it...and to cover their tracks, they claim Muslims came along and murderd them all. Bull! The only people to have killed others SOLELY for their religious beliefsd are Christians who just 60 years ago, not 600 or 4000, killed six million totally innocent Jews who never did a damn thing except advance civilization for us all.

The population of the church in the east is about what you`d get if a few hundred of them started inbreeding 2000 years ago...that is all.
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>Pancho's Quote:
>"...The Church claims they converted people with the wonderful story of Jesus...but we know better...we have an accurate third party testimony from several sources that tell of extreme brutality and forced conversion and the resistance of native people who were wiped out and their orphaned children raised as Christian...had the eastern Church had a Gengis Khan or a Constantine to back it up, I have no doubt Christianity would have "spread" in the east...but their numbers today suggest rather that the small communities who were driven out by the Romans and welcomed into pagan societies simply married among themselves, as they still insist on doing today..in order to remain true and pure...but the church has turned this into an account of MILLIONS of eatsern Christians who were all killed by Islam...I find that very hard to swallow and donīt see the historical, not hysterical, evidence for it.
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>...where did we defend ourselves, except by betraying our neighbors to western Christianity? If what you say is true..and we did that for 2000 years...what happned to US? I mean to our character."
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>-In fact, the early Church of the East writing never used the word "converted." It also documents very well the brutality we suffered under Romans and other westerners. The Church of the East didn't use force to make people "Christians." When the Assyrians went to China, they didn't use force, they just told them about their beliefs and if people wanted to believe, they believed. Actually, many of them did. They built a monument there recognizing that moment.

..they built ONE rock! There will always be some people ripe for converting..look at how many Christians convert AWAY from Christianity...but the numbers are small...at no time did Jesus impress the Chinese PEOPLE...likewise at no time did he impress the Assyrian PEOPLE...he holds some minor fascination for people who feel inadequate in themselves and want a hand up from someone poweful...but no one left his or her own centuries-old culture at the sound of his "message".

Also, interesting to know about our fathers is their lack of force in carrying out this task. H.E. Mar Gewargis Slewa, an Assyrian Church of the East bishop presiding over Iraq, had gone to China to see the area where the Chinese were told about our beliefs. He was amazed to see a building of Chinese architecture be called a Church by them. He asked them, "this is your church?" They said something like: "Yes, your ancestors were very smart. They didn't come here and try to force us to be something we're not or try to change us. We continued to use our own buildings for worship." I think that's very reasonable thinking our people used and very respectful as well.

...I`m sorry...I believe nothing the Fuller Brush Company says about their product..and I believe nothing the Church says about ĖT`S product. The fact is that you are making a mountain out of a small hillside...that doesnīt impress...and neither did Jesu impress the Chinese..and he sure wouldn`t have impressed the Assyrians....the majority of the people on earth are STILL not impressed by his message..which is NOT about love..the whole world knows about love..but is about geting into an afterlife IF you are willing to get an Innocent killed for YOU...this is a crime on earth..surely it should be one in heaven too?
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>Also, while we have documentation of killings of Assyrians by "arab" muslims, our history documents very well how we advanced their society and helped them. We didn't sell them out or try to convert them. And while a tax was imposed on us, we lived peacefully with them for a while. I have Assyrian books that document how much respect they would put on us and our bishops. In some places, we worshipped in the same buildings. Radical Islam came a little later. The larger killings came from the Mongolians and were strengthened when they accepted Radical Islam.

..that is nothing new or worthy of note...of course people of different religions would have their wars..look at the Christians who turned on each other and killed millions for the same Jesus...so what if Muslims killed Christians..why does that impress you so...ahev Christians never killed Muslims..have they never killed Jews?
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>I will say another thing...we did betray. Not our neighbors, but ourselves. I'm not blaming our nation as a whole, but certain people who were trash enough to create schisms in our people and gather groups of followers with them and go create new "Churches."

.the Levies were traitors to Iraq, to the people who took them when they were running for their lives from Iran...what do you call a traitor? If Muslim nations attacked and occupied America..and American Muslims took to wearing the uniform of the attackers, took their pay and carried their weapons with wich they "oiliced" and killed American Christians FOR the Muslims attackers...would that NOT make them traitors? The Levies were traitors to Iraq, to their hosts, to their neighbors and ultimately to the rest of their people..and there were PLENTY of Assyrians BACK THEN who warned them and called them traitors as well. My grandfather among them.

That's the betrayal to western Christianity. And slowly, the one Church that we do have that carried the ways of our Assyrian ancestors is being changed...changed to something westernized. I don't intent to preach to you, you already know what's up. I'm just telling you a little about how I and a few others think. BTW, I don't like the term "christian" for the aforementioned reasons (the betrayals we faced from them). I prefer Messian or Wayist...and if we want to be real "throwback" about it, Ashur-ist or Ashur-ian.

...sorry, there is no affinity whatsovere between the people of Ashur and the people of a Jew Messiah. You`re just trying to come to same conclusion by a different path...there is absolutely no NEED to bring Jesus into..not at all. Love and decency and kindness and loyalty were all alive and well in Nineveh, which was heaven on earth, long before they were "discovered" on THAT sheepshit encrusted hillside you couldn`t blame a Jew for wanting to be SAVED from. There is no apology to be made for being faithful to Ashur...no need to give him a Jew tinge.
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>Regards.



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