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=> Re: since, on any given day...

Re: since, on any given day...
Posted by Don (Guest) - Friday, December 30 2005, 4:07:21 (CET)
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Pancho wrote:
"...the same can be said for Socrates and any number of men and women who`ve stood their ground...without benefit of being gods in secret. Where´s the "sacrifice" in the case of Jesus? He knew he was a god and a son of a god, he knew he was going right up to heaven where he would live in luxury for eternity...he knew his condition was only temporaray...so where`s the big deal? Sems to me like it was one big trick.

...what you`re trying to do is impress us with a story about Donald Trump who, one day, decided to take the elevator down from his penthouse and panhandle on the streets of Manhattan...get arrested, get beeaten by the cops...for about half an hour...after which he throws off his sackcloth from Sears, puts on his gorgeous smoking jacket from Armani...is miraculosuly cleansed of all scars and filth, has his record expunged, receives the undying gratitude of hordes of New Yorkers who have to stay where they are..and goes back up to his penthouse in his air conditioned private elevator...big deal. Did Donald Trump "suffer"?"


-Well, that's a great analogy I must say. Only with the Donald Trump story, he never healed anyone, never died and resurrect himself, etc. But I really can't press that on you since I don't know how you think. Perhaps you believe that people can heal themselves and it can actually be scientifically explained but humans are currently not at the point where they can explain it. That would be a good point too, I can ponder that.


Pancho's Quote:
"...as far as recalling anything, I recall that the bible is a one sided story of the Jews with a bit about one of their countless Messiahs tacked onto the end..it is not an impressive source or a creditibale one for any serious conversation. Many many people have advocated peace and non-violence. Jesus was a good man...one of many millions who`ve been put to death. No more, no less."

-Well, you're correct about that. The compilers of the "bible" did throw out all the Assyrian writings and turn it into their book. They did throw out the book of Khnukh, Ashur, Ahikar The Wise, etc. I don't take the book as a whole to be the truth and the only truth, and I don't pick and choose either. What tradition has taught me is that certain of the writings are parallels, parables, etc. while others are less figurative and while others are completely literal. And then others are complete rip-offs (i.e. 10 Commandments being a condensed version of the Hammurabi's Code). And then I won't even get into the disagreement between sects and Churches as to what books should be in the bible. For (1) example, the Church of the East did not and still has not officially accepted the book of Revelation because it is clear that greeks/westerners tampered with it. We also don't (some misguided people do now days) believe that everything was created in 7 days. There must be some reason used in that, no?

You're correct about the message being stated before. Ashur stated that message to us. Over many years it was perverted. Yeshua came to renew it. I believe that Yeshua was Ashur. The Eastern Church initially did as well. Why would Abgar Okama (the Assyrian king) have believed in him (and by the way, that was not a biblical writing)? Why did the Assyrian predicters (usually most people refer to them as Magi) predict his birth for years before he was born? These people were Assyrians and for lack of another term were Ashur-ists (of the belief of Ashur). Yeshua was also living in the Galilea area - the place where we know Assyrians lived and still live. It seems fitting that Ashur himself would want to live amongst his own people. I think the reason he preached to the Hebrews first is because they were the ones that needed the change first.

Pancho's Quote:
"...the only significant one I see is that eastern Christians are more than likely descendats of the first Jews to believe in Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah. I find it very difficult to believe that the civilized inhabitabnts of the Persian Empire and every other advanced civilization back then dumped their refined cultures at mention of a Jewish Messiah...some few individuals maybe...but hardly the entire power structure and population."

-I was really saying that Eastern Christianity is so different because it was comprised mostly of Assyrians. That's why the early Church in and of the East was exactly the same in belief as Ashurism.

Pancho's Quote:
"...The Church claims they converted people with the wonderful story of Jesus...but we know better...we have an accurate third party testimony from several sources that tell of extreme brutality and forced conversion and the resistance of native people who were wiped out and their orphaned children raised as Christian...had the eastern Church had a Gengis Khan or a Constantine to back it up, I have no doubt Christianity would have "spread" in the east...but their numbers today suggest rather that the small communities who were driven out by the Romans and welcomed into pagan societies simply married among themselves, as they still insist on doing today..in order to remain true and pure...but the church has turned this into an account of MILLIONS of eatsern Christians who were all killed by Islam...I find that very hard to swallow and don´t see the historical, not hysterical, evidence for it.

...where did we defend ourselves, except by betraying our neighbors to western Christianity? If what you say is true..and we did that for 2000 years...what happned to US? I mean to our character."

-In fact, the early Church of the East writing never used the word "converted." It also documents very well the brutality we suffered under Romans and other westerners. The Church of the East didn't use force to make people "Christians." When the Assyrians went to China, they didn't use force, they just told them about their beliefs and if people wanted to believe, they believed. Actually, many of them did. They built a monument there recognizing that moment. Also, interesting to know about our fathers is their lack of force in carrying out this task. H.E. Mar Gewargis Slewa, an Assyrian Church of the East bishop presiding over Iraq, had gone to China to see the area where the Chinese were told about our beliefs. He was amazed to see a building of Chinese architecture be called a Church by them. He asked them, "this is your church?" They said something like: "Yes, your ancestors were very smart. They didn't come here and try to force us to be something we're not or try to change us. We continued to use our own buildings for worship." I think that's very reasonable thinking our people used and very respectful as well.

Also, while we have documentation of killings of Assyrians by "arab" muslims, our history documents very well how we advanced their society and helped them. We didn't sell them out or try to convert them. And while a tax was imposed on us, we lived peacefully with them for a while. I have Assyrian books that document how much respect they would put on us and our bishops. In some places, we worshipped in the same buildings. Radical Islam came a little later. The larger killings came from the Mongolians and were strengthened when they accepted Radical Islam.

I will say another thing...we did betray. Not our neighbors, but ourselves. I'm not blaming our nation as a whole, but certain people who were trash enough to create schisms in our people and gather groups of followers with them and go create new "Churches." That's the betrayal to western Christianity. And slowly, the one Church that we do have that carried the ways of our Assyrian ancestors is being changed...changed to something westernized. I don't intent to preach to you, you already know what's up. I'm just telling you a little about how I and a few others think. BTW, I don't like the term "christian" for the aforementioned reasons (the betrayals we faced from them). I prefer Messian or Wayist...and if we want to be real "throwback" about it, Ashur-ist or Ashur-ian.


Regards.



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