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=> Re: you want a plot? I'll give you a plot!

Re: you want a plot? I'll give you a plot!
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Tuesday, June 13 2006, 3:37:29 (CEST)
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Don wrote:
>“...you`re making a virtue of your limitations...when you can`t see a connection you assume I´ve changed the subject. Before you can fault Jews you have step back and ask what Christians did to them...no European Jew ever wanted to live in Palestine...not a one of them wanted to give up Berlin or Warsaw for Haifa...if there is such a thing as Zionism, the credit for it goes to Christians...if you torture people enough they WILL fight back...but you can`t blame the woman you tried to rape for being ¨"violent" when she put your eyes out.”
>
>---Notice I never hounded the Jews for their Zionist Movement. I clearly showed that they were forced into it. Just like the people of Iraq are being forced to fight back but are being labeled negative things like “terrorist.” I have also stated on this forum that it was the popes who played a large hand in screwing the Jews.

...thank you.
>
>“...you go back, but only a little...just far back enough to where your prejudices are confirmed...but farther than that you dare not go...that is YOUR problem, not mine. You aren`t radical yet...you don`t go to the root of an issue...you don`t ask why there is Zionism...why and how there is an Israel...but it´s okay...you`re obviously pleased with yourself...so why bother?
>
>---No, that’s not true. I have stated several times that it was Christians that forced them to that point – e.g. see my comment about the popes above.

...okay.
>
>“...that´s absurd. That´s like saying WMDs were a ploy, a gimmick...and then leave the subject entirely...sure they were ploys and gimmicks...but to what END? And...what are the consequences right now...they fact that religion or WMDs are a ploy does NOT lessen the number of people killed by such "ploys". You haven`t explained anything or simplified anything by calling them ploys and tricks...you´ve only made a simpleton of yourself.
>
>---Come on, I thought you were better than that. That’s fuzzy logic. You can’t substitute one thing for another and still expect the statement to still be true. That’s being a simpleton. What I am saying is that those same people that caused the harm to the Jews were not “real” Christians, according to many people.

...you can`t do that...you can´t subsititute real Christians for "fake" ones. A real Christian is one who suspends logic...who believes in fantastic lies just because someone told them it MUST be true...when you get someone to that point, doesn`t matter how good they are, they are primed and ready to believe a Bush..to rush headlong into more and greater absurdities....a person who will not say "what are you talking about you fool you", when told the "marvellous" story of Jesus...the Eucharist and the rest of it, will NOT question seriously when a Bush says we must go into Iraq because "I have proof SOMEWHERE". Christianity is one long bloody seige against the human mind and body...matters not at all that in and around the rest of the Germans there were some¨"good" ones..what matters is that the good ones and the bad ones TOGETHER were receptive to ideas which made no sense whatsoever, but were tolerated because Christianity itself makes NO sense....and its adherents are proud to say, "it doesn`t HAVE to". When humans move forward glad to have left their human reason behind them...viewing almost as an impediment to "Love and Joy" and certainly to "faith", then they`re on that slippery slope...a slope where Hitlers and Bushes abound APLENTY.

The same Turks and Kurds that caused the harm to Assyrian Christians less than 100 years ago do not cause me to go hate Islam. I understand what happened – happened as a result of the West’s attack against the East and with us being Christian, we were viewed as a threat. That perceived threat pushed people across the line into becoming extremists just like an attack on Iraq was what turned people “extremist” against the Americans.

...it wasn`t perceived...it was real enough....if the Christian United States can go attack Iraqis because of what fifteen Saudis and two Egyptians did...then anything goes. Christians DID fight the Ottomans on behalf of the foreign Christians..and they`ve been paying the price since and the price just got higher.

It does not matter if the danger is real or perceived, I understand the fact that force or danger makes people do what they ordinarily would not do. I know you have your interpretation of Christianity – one where it was born in blood – and that’s fine.

..it isn`t fine...it`s horrible and explains much of what Christians have been doing since. Any drug on the market that has the effectiveness that Christianity does in making people "good" and whole...while causing irreprable harm to the PLANET and the health of countless millions killed because of and BY Christianity, would be pulled from the shelves immediately as a menace and a public health nuisance...not everything is relative..."I have my beliefs and you have your`s and each of us is entitled"...BULLSHIT. The KKK is also welcome to its beliefs...but let them ACT on those beliefs and they go to jail. You Christians ACT on your beliefs, but all you see is "lovingkindgoodness"...which is NOT a part of Christianity but a part of Humanity...what is UNIQUE to you people is this confusion of blood sacrfice, of HUMAN sacrifice, with LOVE....a crying after someone you NEEDED to have killed or he couldn`t work miracles for people`s mothers..that is sick and despicable and is the underlying force behind all the mayhem you people of Love have committed and are committing...you simply wash over all the blood with pious cant about "good" Christians vs the bad ones...and your brochures which tout your religion as the one true and best one...ignoring the countless millions of people your religion has murdered who did NOT want any part of it...

But what I’m saying is that the majority of “good” Christians…I mean the ones that really do not want to harm anyone, will disagree about that.

...you cannot characterize something by its EXCEPTIONS...you can`t seek out ten Fiats in Rome and Milan which never gave any trouble the first year and say therefore that the millions of FIATS ARE GREAT CARS. That`s absurd....the world and the people in it have not suffered because of the few good Christians you manage to find...we`re talking about the irreprable harm CHRISTIANS have done and keep doing...because they hide their crimes behind this facade of LOVE.

That’s just like how within Islam there are people saying “hey, our religion does not encourage killing, these people are forcing some of us to kill and then they’re branding us as terrorists.”

..that is NOT the same. It is NOT Islam that started two world wars and a Holocaust, that tore at itself for a few hundred years in religious wars, it is not Islam that murdered HALF the people on earth, one entire HALF on its way to "win converts". It is NOT Islam that had a Vietnam, a Korea...an Iraq..it is not Islam that trained people in torture in entire continents...the two are NOT the same...there is nothing you can compare Christianity and its violence to...nothing. And to cloud your vision to all that it has done while focusing on the few GOOD ones is also what Christianity does to you...forces you to give up or bastardize your critical faculties because, come hell or high water, you are committed to keeping the basic insitution, the Franchise, alive and killing.

I don’t sit there and hate Islam for it. I know that deep down, many of these beliefs were started with at least some good intent. You’ve said it yourself that the “good” Christians, the ones who really try to live in peace with their neighbors, don’t deserve what’s coming to them as a result of America attacking Iraq. To me, America is not Christianity even though the current President uses that as his banner b/c he knew he needed Evangelical votes to get elected.

...you can play that game if you want to...you can discount all the harm Christians do by saying, "well, they aren`t REAL ones"...but that´s the same thing THEY are saying about YOU...as far as the VICTIMS of Christianity are concerned the RELIGION has its screws loose...never mind that a few escape its effects...there were good Christians in Germany but that made no difference, except that perhaps the good ones excused the bad ones so much until the bad ones were able to slip by and dominate the rest before showing just what they were up to...but there again, these organized, formal religions are NOT in power to peddle love and meekness...that`s what they say in their brochures...Christianty appealed to the greatest mass killers on earth at the time they made it their religion of choice because it DOES something to the human mind...because it also does something to human morality that made the Roman Empire hum and tick far better and longer than their previous religion had...THAT is the "gift" of Christianity....the rest is à child crying in the dark for fear...a fear that Christianity itself PUT there.
>
>“..then tell us who orchestrated the Holocaust...go on. How come you mention the religion of the JEWS...but don`t want to see Christianity mentioned? YOU people stop gassing and killing people and hiding it behind your prince of peace, whom you ALSO wanted murdered so you could get into heaven..and I promise you I`ll never mention your religion.”
>
>---Whoever it was, it’s not someone I – or many other people – would call a “real” Christian. You mean to say Hitler was a “real” Christian?

...of course he was. No doubt you`re aware of the conflict among the early "Fathers" of the church as to what to do with the Jews..what "Final Solution" there should be...it was Augustine, I believe, the "kinder" one who won the day...he said Jews should not be wiped out en masse, as the other fathers were calling for...rather it would be useful and, oh yes, more "humane", if they were kept around as an OBJECT LESSON in what can happen to people, by god´s will of course, if they denied or betrayed Jesus...and so the Jews were kept alive and handy for just such object lessons...it was Hitler who revived that debate, a modern day Father of the Church, who opted for what the early popes and Fathers wanted, that is: wipe them ALL out. Hitler merely picked up and won the day from where the other Father`s of the Church left off...of COURSE he was a real Christian...and it wasn`t only Hitler or the Germans..the rest of Europe and the Americans too were thrilled that someone finally came along to do what the church had been afraid to do, as yet...a Church that had been TEACHING this crap for 1500 years...and often enough acting on it too.

Besides the massive genocide (which is far more than enough on its own), he was also a womanizer. He stated that his girlfriend was a model German woman: “Young, blonde, and stupid” or something to that effect.

...and popes and priests AREN`T??? As far as we know, at least, he wasn`t a pedophile..in fact he loathed homosexuals.

And then the popes…we’re talking about the people who wanted the world to stay in the dark ages…in ignorance. We’re talking about the same people who divided us Assyrians and contributed greatly to our problems. Many men (across the world and of all religions) went into becoming clergy b/c they understood it as a way to have job security, safety and protection, money, shelter, and many other perks. These men, in many cases as many peoples’ experiences show, did not even believe in what they preached. But that shouldn’t cause one to hate his belief. That person should be removed but should not be the reason for disbelief.

...that`s silly. As I`ve pointed out ad nauseum when you teach Christianity you teach a virulent form of oportunism and make a RELIGION of it....if here on earth you agreed to benefit by the murder of an innocent person solely because through no other way could you get a "Goodie" of supreme worth, you would be arrested as an accomplice after the fact...but an accomplice all the same...because you AGREED to the murder in order to benefit from it. This is so simple and so obvious and so damning that you as yet have not been able to even come close to dealing with it. To compound your crime by agreeing also to "symbolically" eat his flesh and drink his blood ensures your utter damnation and moral bankruptcy..which makes you a PRIME candidate for the kind of Christian "soldiers" Constantine and the rest of the popes wanted. After sinking that low, what WON`T a person agree to?

...what would you say of a religion that "only" symbolically uses a doll to signify a human infant...a doll which a "priest" uses in a religious "rite"..in which he uses a "symbollic" penus to rape the child with...in front of the whole "congregation"..and then INVITES the rest of the people, young and old alike...to file up front and use the symbollic phallus to SODOMIZE the symbollic child....would you rest easy to know that it was ONLY symbollic??? Why does your religion chose two of the most heinous and condemned acts, cannibalism and vampirism, as SYMBOLS OF LOVE...why???? Is that so much worse or more absurd than my using pederasty and child molestation...which are only slightly more odious to human beans than cannibalism and vampirism? How come your bloody religion doesn`t have people plant flowers as a SYMBOLLIC act of Love? Why commit two of the most hated and disgusting and ILLEGAL acts known to humans?

...go on...wrap your Christian head...stuffed full of "faith" around that.
>
>“...at least you`re consistant in your bigotry...why were Jews being kidnapped into Israel? Could it be that the ones there already knew they would need NUMBERS??? Aren`t Assyrians crying out for others to go back to Iraq...why? To dance? You consistantly leave out the most important parts..the very BEGINNING...just so you can shovel shit at Jews and hide Christian atrocities and crimes those people are STILL paying for.
>
>---I was agreeing with you, remember? I stated the thing from that book as supporting evidence - not to blame people, dork.
>
>“...you load all your venom onto the Zionists...without ONCE mentioning the Christian pogrom orchestrated by the popes for 1500 years to HOUND the Jews to death...I suppose you think it was Zionists who made a last stand in the Warsaw ghetto and that they were "just like that". You make a good American, blind to all except what proves your own yankeedoodleshit.
>
>---Bubba, what venom? I did not condemn them for created Zionism. I have repeatedly stated what made them become that way. You don’t know me, so please don’t say “your own yankeedoodleshit.” I said I do not condemn them nor praise them. The one thing that I will say is that the way they organized and came together is amazing.

...you SAID...the Zionists are behind events in Iraq. No they aren`t...the CHRISTIANS are!!!
>
>“..Reading books isn`t enough...you need to think about what you read..and it helps if you leave your prejudices at the door...”
>
>---Yea, you’re right. It would help if you checked yours at the door as well when debating with me. You still do not know my beliefs clearly – if at all – to sit there and accuse me of things. Despite that, thank you for a good conversation asab khortkon.

...from your mouth to my ears...you SAID the Zionists are behind things...that`s like an American saying the "terrorists" are "bombing Christians"...without mentioning ONCE that if they are...there is a damn good REASON for it....so stick to the REASONS that people around the world come up with inventive and often cruel and violent means to confront their Christian OPPRESSORS!



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