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Posted by pancho (Guest) - Tuesday, January 10 2006, 22:58:00 (CET)
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>...more later.....
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>>...Monotheism has made people murderously intolerant..that is the only gift it has given us..it was implemented by Tyrants who insisted on their RIGHT to rule over the lives of strangers...to force THEIR ways on everyone...Christianity has KILLED the natural spirituality of millions of people round the world..reducing them to caricatures of their former selves while halting their natural progression.
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>>...come on...there WERE several gods back then. Youīre trying to cover up what WASNīT a crime back then. No one back then minded having separate gods...youīre using your devotion to monotheism to re-write our history..we had TONS of gods and loved them all...Ishtar was NOT Ashur...she wasnīt Jesus either."
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>>-I don't deny that we, in our various pre-unified tribes and some post-unified cities, had "gods" but they were only "gods" in the sense that each tribe was worshipping its own single entity just with different names. We did have city gods as well but it didn't take too long for us to (as a whole nation) accept one entity.

...as kingdoms became swallowed up by empires, tribal and city gods had to be converted into emperor-gods. An emperor who wanted to be ONE ruler also wanted a god who was ONE god...made administration so much easier...but that wasn`t the case in Assyria...Ashur was supreme...but everyone else was welcome.


Here is a poem from Assyrian King Ashur Banipal (a man of reason and academia whom you know compiled a huge library that we unfortunately don't have much access to):
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>>"O Father of all creations, who watches over all beings.
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>>O Lord who determines the orbits of heavens and earth.
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>>Whose command is not set aside.
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>>Who holds fire and water, and guides all souls.
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>>What god reaches thy perfection?
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>>Who is glorified in heaven? Thou alone art glorified.
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>>Who is exalted on earth? Thou alone art exalted.
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>>Thy word proclaimed in heaven, angels prostrate themselves.
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>>Thy word proclaimed on earth, the oracles kiss the ground.
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>>Thy word blows like a storm in the sky, food and drink flows.
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>>Thy word settles down upon the earth, vegetation grows up.
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>>Thy word spreads over the flock and cattle, life increases.
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>>Thy word, who can comprehend it?
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>>Who is like unto thee O Lord? There is none, but Thee.
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>>Supreme in heaven, Supreme on earth.
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>>O lord of the exalted high ones,
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>>Thy word has no rival, thy divinity is beyond compare."
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>>This was how many Assyrian kings wrote. Clearly, he is referencing a monotheistic "god" - Ashur in this case.

...there are prayers addressed to Zeus as well....and there were a ton of other gods running around Olympus just under him...he even had a wife...so?


Ashur Banipal is just one example of kings/people who wrote this way. I wish I had the time to compile all of them. However, you in one post wrote that Assyrians were tolerant and didn't massacre people, etc. Following the logic that monotheism makes us intolerant, then Ashur Banipal and those that came before and after him must have been assholes, no?

...huh? I said we didn`t wipe people out BECAUSE they had other gods...this was brought into being by the Hebrews...who, on discovering your god in a dunghill in the desseret proceeded to make war on other Jews who would not accept yahwe...the Assyrians had wars...but their god was NOT the excuse..and when they conquered, they did NOT kill you for having a different god or, as the Christians would do, for having a slight VARIATION on the same god! And more than that, the Assyrians allowed those they conquered to keep their gods..to move their sacred images with them into exile,...and they respected them ALL....when you have several gods yourself it`s easy to accpet the reasonable notion that OTHER people have a right to THEIR gods...and that made the Assyrians TOLERANT..it was the Hideous Hebrews who introduced the notion of killing even your OWN people because they dared worship a god YOU didn`t want them to worship...this dismal behavior pattern is the hallmark of monotheism...because how can your god be the ONLY one when millions of people are not impressed? It`s a challenge you can`t take lying down and no Christian ever did.

By the way, I don't think they really were assholes or that did were intolerant. I do agree with your earlier comment that they were tolerant among other things. Nevertheless, even though they did have various city gods or tribal gods, they were usually monotheistic but included the "attributes" of Ashur, which were masculine or feminine depending on the word that became the name of those attributes.

...I said the pagan world was a TOLERANT world....tolerant of the gods of other people...murderous certainty is something monotheism brought with it...it was no part of paganism...Monotheism has been a curse...not a blessing. And besides which it`s an obvious lie...there is clearly no ONE god....if you want to say they are all really ONE and that one just happens to be YOUR`S and further more, that he just happens to be JESUS...well, good luck.
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>>Farid:
>>"...thatīs the whole point of an exchange such as this...to find OUT what each thinks...but youīre expected to RESPOND...not merely turn away."
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>>-Well, we are doing a good job with that. This is a really good conversation. I found this more fun than most other internet forum debates. I'm not turning away from the conversation as a whole, just this one aspect because it requires too much citing for which I am too busy for and it makes me kind of tired of talking about it for that reason. You are not the one turning me away. It's just the nature of the debate and how our view on this specific things is so different that I feel I have to pull out so many things to show. That's my issue.

...intellectual growth takes effort...."faith" is easy...a dog has "faith".
>>
>>Farid:
>>"...we can COMMENT on each otherīs idiologies...you do not have to be in agreement to discuss...I donīt want to discuss church liturgy with you...we were discussing the REASONS for such beliefs."
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>>-Truthfully, you know and state this more than I do. Faith/religious beliefs don't have too much reason behind them. I have always been aware of that.

...that, then, is the greatest crime....human Reason will save us...not faith. A charlatan can get a child to have faith in him...a charlatan can`t abuse Reason...or rather, Reason will show him to be a charlatan...why do you thuink I`m banned from everywhere? I use Reason to blow "Assyrians" out my arse.

Probably the most humanly reasonable of all religions would be either Islam or Zoroastrianism...but I think moreso Islam. But then again, that's why they are FAITHS. The faith that I myself have doesn't tell me to throw away what I need for this world. I live my life here and what I have faith for in regards to the next life or whatever is my faith.

...actually Zen Buddhism is the most humane and reasonable belief system...it downplays a deity and an afterlife and instead concentrates of "right living"...as Socretes and so many decent and humane people did and do. These religions based on Judeo crap are barbarous in the extreme. I read a book once that outlines the basic beliefs of several religions...they ALL came across as designed by madMEN...only Zen came close to being a model way of life and thought...
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>>Farid:
>>"...well you DO use the word Evangelical way too much. You DO believe Jesus said to spread his message etc."
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>>-Yes, but to those who choose to accept it.

...sorry...there is no evangelical who waits fior YOu to knock on his door...since the beginning they have been a major pain in the ass, forcing themselves on people too polite to tell them to go blow.

...you keep referencing ideals when discussing realities...I don`t care what the car salesman SAYS...I care how the thing DRIVES...the reality of what your religion has done is the issue...who cares what it says in the promotional material.

I should not force my belief on you even if you don't want it. Even Yeshua says that when he says "brush your feet off and move on."

...you have a prediliction for quoting things you have no idea anyone said...who or where or when...you just "believe". Seems to me an Assyrian would far rather be quoting the A CTUAL words the whole damn world KBNOWS the Assyrians wrote THEMSELVES...you take far too much to heart with very little critical thought...how the hell do YOU know what Jesus siad...why this rush and frenzy to believe ANYTHING a Jew said...when we KNOW he never wrote anything..and anything attributed to him was written down by people who NEVER saw him or heard him...but mostly was written by Alexandrian Jews a few centuries later and far far away from the place and the time? Why?

That's the problem with Christianity. It's most "loyal" followers are the biggest hypocrites on earth. And that's why I agree with you when you state that they're self-righteous and try to enforce things on others.
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>>Farid:
>>"My position is that Christianity has been the greatest scourge the world has ever seen...that it has produced the self-rightrous and pious MOTHER of all excuses to go kill people..that it is a religion BORN in murder, not life otr resurrection...since NOTHING could have happened if a man was not FIRST murdered...if he was not FIRST killed...so the resurrection could take place and impres you all so. Iīm compelled by the facts before me to try to understand why Christians kill...why they kill all those of other faiths and then go kill EACH OTHER. No one...no one has killed more Christians than OTHER Christians...and it puzzles me and scares me when I hear Christians dreaming out loud of of Judgement Day and how GLORIOUS it will be when the world errupts in flames and bloodshed...these people are NOT preparing for peace but for TOTAL war! It is the "peace" of the cemetary they seek...this makes then dangerous and their behavior SHOWS how dangerous they are."
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>>-Again, I agree. However, to me - to me - there is a distinction to draw between the COTE and the West.


COTE?

I do not deny incidents like the one that Tiglath posted about the Persians during the Sassanid Empire. However, most of those things were attempts to destroy the COTE

...OH! Church Of The East...I get it...well, let me ask you again...how come it was NEVER called "Assyrian" back then? Why only recently?

from within. And I will also agree that it was used for negative purposes - but so was Communism under several regimes. However, that does not stop loyal Communists from saying "F Communism" simply because of the way certain people used it and as a result, deaths occurred. I too, see wrong things within, but that's why "movements" occur. They occur so that people can remove the wrong from an ideology they think can be viable if people really worked hard at it.

...you cannot and should not institutionalize spirituality...you should make an organization out of it...or create a hierachy...or any kind of ritual..it`s a personal matter for each person to discover...if their`s is similar to your`s..okay...but to try to FORCE it by teaching it as the ONLY or even the BEST way, to impressionable children dependent on their paren`s goodwill to survive, is a mistake and verges on being a crime.

...all you`ll do is replace one ideology with another and miss the point all over again...every government sooner or later breeds a revolution..and the revolution becomes the next government...and so on.

If not, then they move on and create some new institution to reach their goals. And just like your compelled to understand why Christian kills Christian, I can be compelled to ask why Shiite Muslims and Sunni Muslims kill each other or why anyone kills another person. This is our human nature. We cannot escape it. It will exist with or without religion.

...human nature can certainly be modified and mollified..if I took a baby from 7000 years ago and raied it in Mexico today...i could make a resonable Mexican of 2006 out of it...likewise I could take a newborn infant from today back 7000 years and make a perfect Hottentot of it...our human nature is indeed malleable,...all the more reason that we take great care what we teach and how we treat children...the trouble with YOR religion is that it enshrines death, opportunism, cannibalism and vampirism...you place a copy of a corpse over your altars in your houses of "worship"..often with the gore still dripping...under this image you encourage children to symbollically eat human flesh and drink blood...you make "salvation" dependant on them accepting it through MURDER...these are things that will unhinge ENOUGH people to breed us all the wars and stupidities we can barely handle....there are MUCH better ways to teach love and decency and kindness than resorting to Hebrew barbarisms of 3000 years ago....just as their methods of surgery sucked and were sure to kill you...so is this way of "teaching morality" about set to kill us all.
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>>Farid:
>>"...I donīt believe in religions...they are all irrational by nature, they HAVE to be..and I distrust any "teacher" who insists you must hand over your Reason...or not develop it for it is an enemy of FAITH."
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>>-I don't believe in religion but I believe in my own personal faith. I think religion is like any institution and it can be exploited to destroy people's lives.

...an instituiion may be a good thing...but who wants to live in an institution?
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>>Farid:
>>"..Jews praise themselves for being so "bold" as to show their warts in their bible...itīs just too neat and clean to "discover" they were "highly paid technicians" all of a sudden...everyone dreams of re-writing their history...look at you. Thereīs even an attempt being made to re-write the history of the last Nazi Pope..the one who made the deal with Hitler...Murdoch, or one of them, has had "new studies" released in which they "prove" there was no such deal...even the American military plants articles...so, yes...when people CAN do it...they WILL re-write their history. Just because you find it incredible doesnīt make it so."
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>>-Hmm, you're right about that. I have nothing to combat that. However, when I state something about the past (like the notion on monotheism) I do so b/c of "evidence" I have seen. I am open to anyone to come and prove otherwise to me with reasonable evidence as well.

...I don`t recall your reference here...I think monotheism was nothing more than in heaven, what the emperor wanted to achieve here on earth...it`s no accident that the Romans became enamored of Christianity...they didn`t convert to Christ, they converted Christ to THEM...they wanted that "KIngdom" in heaven...under ONE god, because they sought to rule the earth..under ONE God-Emperor.
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>>Farid:
>>"...good. Unlike Paul and others, you manage to remain rational. They all started out as if they COULD...but were soon howling at the moon and sprinkling pixie dust. I am always amazed that people who disdain Reason and PRAISE fath and illogic seem to feel the NEED to act as if anything they say should make SENSE...why not just smear war paint on, chant and be done with it? Why even BOTHER to appear to be rational?"
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>>-I don't know Paul and the others. However, even if you and I have similarities and differences with others, we are still individuals and thus I will look at you like that.
>>
>>Farid:
>>"...have you read Mien Kampf?...that was written by a Christian. Jews lived in peace in Iraq...Jews did NOT live in peace in Germany...or for long anywhere in Christian lands..and yes, the Christians DID finally catch the Jews...they placed them in Aushcwitz and Bergen Belsen and a few other camps where they systematically cooked them. Was it, "Hahahaha", hilarious?"
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>>No, the events were not hilarious. Your words that you used to describe were. You almost made it seem like you were talking about people who were all responsible for a bank robbery and someone caught them. That's what was so funny about your words.

..oh.
>>
>>Farid:
>>...that wasnīt the question. The question was, how can you follow TWO gods if you are a monotheist? Would you accept a Jewish Christian? A Muslim Christian? You people canīt accept an "Assyrio-Chaldean"...who is supposedly BOTH of one ethnicity..you say she must CHOOSE which...that to be "Chaldean" is wrong...that it simply means "Assyrian" anyway...so how come you can believe in TWO gods? The name of the religion contains the name of the god...CHRIST-ians are those who follow Christ...YAHWE-ists are those who follow yahwe...BUDDHA-ists are those who follow Buddha...MUHAMMED-ans are those who follow Muhammad...guess which god ASHUR-ians follow? You can mash the two together if it makes you feel better...but it is still true that you give precedence to the Jew...no Assyrian EVER did that.
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>>-Speaking through logic, it's not possible. However, some people will say that a "god" exists irrespective of culture. See, you (and others) are of the belief that gods are human made objects or ideas. I (and others) are of the belief that "gods" can be human made objects or ideas but that there exists some "Creator," some entity that created the universe whom I can not associate only to my culture/ethnicity.

...you should not base so much of your intellectual foundation on things you have no knowledge of...pigs MAY fly on Mars...but if you`re going to say they do...YOU have the obligation to prove it...and if I can`t prove they DON`T..it does NOT follow that "they might"...or, "it remains an open question"..or, the greatest dodge of all..."I just have FAITH that they do".

...you say you believe ONE Creator created all of this...go ahead. I can`t prove you wrong..and don`t need to...it just creates an impression of you that doesn`t do your mind justice. There is no reason to care WHERE all of this came from...that`s the essence of our OWN holy story, The Epic of Gilgamesh...there is no way to answer those "big questions"...except by making a fool of yourself..it is not likely that people who can barely balance a check-book "know" a Creator and know what he did and how and when and why. Gilgamesh starts out a lout who cries himself to sleep when he loses hid friend..he can`t get his way, is distraught and sets out to ask those stupid BIG questions that only small minds bother with...and he comes to learn that he CAN`T answer those big questions...and that the BEST that can be hoped for is to embrace his family and live as a good person here on earth...let heaven and metaphysics go rot in hell...let Humans make a paradise on earth...whatever will come will come..it is the height of arrogance and stupidity plus a sure way to MAKE this earth a place worth escaping to go around asking BIG questions...when you have a SMALL mind...especially when it sooner or later leads to killing whoever has his or her own BIG answer.

..all of this tuff is ignorance enshrined and barbarity...as went the medical "science" of 3000 years ago, as well hygeine, cooking, food safety and anything else...so should go the "morality" of those days. As Assyrians were always at the forefront...we remain today dedicated to living another way...and if it places us at the forefront again...well, that`s the way it goes.


The only thing I (for example) can do is claim that I learned about this "Creator" (God, whatever) first or second (and so on) or claim that I was told about him through someone else or claim that what I know about him was revealed to my people/ethnicity whereas perceptions of this "Creator" are different to another ethnicity because each person and each people see things differently. You see what I'm saying? This is where our difference is - I believe he is a Spirit and you believe he is just a cultural or personal idea/symbol/object.

...I believe YOU made him up...I have no such need. I don`t BOTHER to wonder who made that mountain...I`m content to enjoy it...climb it and respect.

It just so happens that I believe my ethnicities name is Ashur and so is my god, you see? Aside from that, how can one claim that there is anything so special about a belief/faith in "God" if it does not have some entity that is larger than us. For example, in the 3 basic monotheistic religions, they all believe that there is this unseen God (occasionally seen or revealed to man) that has created the universe. Buddhism claims has its niche or its special place in the world in that it claims (via an atheistic tradition) that one must meditate and forget about the world. Well, as you say, let's be reasonable about this. First of all, why be on this earth to forget about it and its wonders?

...asking dumb questions is NOT a way to enjoy this earth. Who CARES how the world got here...or where it might go? What possible difference can it make to your life? Does it change what you need to do each day in order to make yourself and others happy?

Second, this idea of meditation is something I can achieve without Buddhism; things like yoga incorporate meditation. The idea of not harming any creation is also found in other things...so I don't really need it either. In fact, if this belief in anything "special" lacks some almighty Creator, what is its point? What would be the point of me creating a God if he does not do anything for me but simply stands as a statue or serves as discussion by virtue of being a word on paper.


...why this need to have someone, a god...do something FOR you? Why must a God DO anything? Is it an allowance you lack? Why do you want things DONE for you? What a curious sort of god you`ve dreamed up!

Following this logic,

...come come...none of this is Logic.

I would argue that atheism allows me to a better person b/c it means I am not tied down to worshipping anything or following silly rituals which in turn allows me to pursue making money to live better with or to directly help people with my actions.

...why is making money living a "better" life?

So yes Farid, religion is not meant to be reasonable. If it was it wouldn't be any different from being a Capitalist or Communist, etc. That's why this crazy thing we refer to as "faith" is unique. It finds its uniqueness in having faith or holding belief that the universe and its inhabitants were created by a Creator.

...whom you can next GET things from...I don`t get it...I surely don`t.

I don't claim my belief (in its original, unchanged and uninterpreted forms) to be better than science. It has a completely different reason for being. Science seeks to explain and offers hypotheses for something that could occur while belief is this side thing I am entitled to and concerns me and my beliefs on the afterlife. Why it began to be used as a weapon to destroy man is not something I can answer but is not something I can agree with.

...well...the ancients didn`t bother with an afterlife...the Assyrians let it go simply as a place where shadows possibly existed...in truth, an eternal life would be an eternal bore...I have no trouble thinking of myself or my children rotting in the warm embrace of my mother, the earth..or going up to the stars as smoke. No problem at all....you are simply afraid of the dark..of the unknown. If you were rational when in your mother`s womb and someone tried to explain the wonders waiting you once you are born...but that birth involved being squeezed into a tight space...on the other side of which were things you could in NO way imagine or picture...you would be AFRIAD OF LIFE..and instead want to remain in that warm dark and wet space that was ALL the "world" to you and represented all of "Life" you EVER wanted to know...you are as afraid of Death now as you would have been of Life back in the womb...odd...womb and tomb are almost the same...more later....



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