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=> on shit hill....

on shit hill....
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Thursday, May 11 2006, 20:27:01 (CEST)
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Don wrote:
>“...because Yonan is wrong. There are all sorts of examples of self-sacrifice way before Jesus came along...and Will Durant doesn´t say self-denial was unique with Jesus..in fact he says the Buddhists are far more advanced along those lines than Jesus ever was.”
>
>---No one says self-sacrifice was unique with Jesus (well, the white Christians seem to think so).


...I`ve heard this from plenty of dark Christians..including Paul Yonan.

I’m saying if that’s the message he was renewing, there’s nothing wrong with it.

..of course not. But that`s not the significant issue....I want someone to present me with a convincing argument for what Assyrians would have GAINED by supposedly flocking to this religion..if all it was was a renewal of things...big deal. This also begs the questions...Jesus was a Jew renewing JUDAISM...why weren`t the Assyrians able to produce a renewal of their own? I know the answer...but do you?

He also renewed the message that it’s okay to use force when one is obliged to (e.g. the temple scene).

...well yes...because he was using force on behalf of other people...not for his own sake. When it came time to rescuing HIM through force...he would have none of it. This may be Christian...but it sure as hell isn`t Assyrian. Assyrians served others by making sure to serve their own interests first...like you`re asked to first place the oxygen mask on your own face first...on an airplane..and only THEN on the face of your children...that`s because you need to be ALIVE first if you`re going to do them any good. Jesus would have strapped masks on the children in the plane FIRST...and died well before he could have served ALL the children. If you insist on sacrifining yourself, why not do it in the PROCESS of working for others..which means YOU have to be hale and hearty and ALIVE to continue your "service"?

That’s not different than what I had to learn when I was going through school. I was always told not to fight (b/c of the problems caused by it…like suspension) but there was situations where I had to. There’s no time to go whine to the teacher, who isn’t going to do anything anyway.

...agreed.
>
>
>“...like I said...there are LOTS of examples of self-sacrifice BEFORE Jesus came along...it was nothing new in the ancient world...and, as I also pointed out, Jesus was a GOD...remember? Therefore he was only playing at suffering and dying..he knew damn well he would bounce right up and go to heaven...Socrates and millions of others didn´t believe that for a minute...they were human, there was no "miracle" in store for them...they suffered for REAL and went down to their graves without any expectation of living forever anyway...I have never understood how you people accept such a fraud as the "sacrifice" of Jesus...what sacrifice? He was just PRETENDING.”
>
>---Yea I know you don’t believe it, but there’s the issue of his physical person at hand. Every one of those people you mentioned (or another noble example in my opinion, Stanley “Tookie” Williams) did suffer.

...you KNOW about Tookie...you know nothing of Jesus...not first hand. If someone I don`t know tells me something ordinary, well within the realm of natural possibilities...I`ll take a risk and believe them...but if someone I never heard of, whom I have no way of knowing even existed tells me something FANTASTIC...sorry...it`s going to require more than "faith" in the fantastic.

The point of their suffering was to teach people something – whatever it was in their respective cases. Okay, so Jesus suffers, too – what’s different?

...your math teacher doesn`t teach you algebra by "suffering". That`s a pretty primitive way to teach someone something...but it`s probably true that the hairy Hebrews learned everything through suffering...like they learned architure by sufering several broken heads and limbs as building after Hebrew building fell on them. It may be effective...in time...but it isn`t very sophisticated a way to advance.

To the reader, it’s the fact that Jesus also shows resurrection.

...you`re overlooking a tiny detail...Jesus wasn`t allowed to live out a normal life...teaching and preaching and reaching that many more people. Jesus was EXECUTED...his pappy demanded it. If the point to Jesus was resurrection...he could have lived out a normal life, like Muhammad...died of old age, like Muhammad....surrounded by family and friends, like Muhammad..and STILL been resurrected. But that isn`t the CORE of Christianity...murder is. Jesus HAD to be torn limb from limb..and generations of innocent children who come later MUST accept that this murder, this heinous crime, was committed for THEIR benefit...and if they do that, you don`t have to go much farther to explain why Christianity is such a bloody religion.

Granted, this seems crazy to many people…2000 years later. But that’s what his story was. Asking what’s so special about his case when people for thousands of years before him had done similar things is like asking what was so special about them.

...since you people bring up Jesus and an example of sacrifice..and since you people say he was a god and a son of a god...then YOU people make all the others..the ones who were NOT gods, into something special...because by comparison, their suffering was REAL and permanent..it was NOT an act...like the suffering of Jesus.

What I mean is that, if none of those other stories seem like a big deal, the Jesus one won’t either.

...those stories are normal....people have done these things since the beginning of time...what is NOT normal is to claim a God suffered and by HIS suffering taught the rest of us how it should be done. And those people were not the basis of founding a religion...a religion that our boys claim SAVED Assyrians. If you`re going to make such wild-assed claims...then YOU have to stand up for them...not me.
>
>
>“Jesus was a JEW..he was NOT a Christian.”
>
>---Sorry that was confusing. I meant a hypothetical person…not Jesus.
>
>
>“...Muhammad didn´t preach self-sacrifice...he renewed other parts of the basic message...which is nothing more than there is a hobgoblin up in the sky so you better watch it. How would you like to be confronted by people who preached a "renewal" of all the OTHER things people in the time of Jesus believed? Would you want a surgeon operating on you who used the same tools they used at the time of Jesus? How about carpentry..or hygiene? How can it be that you´rew so glad we don´t perscribe bat piss mixed with the menstrual blood of a cow for headaches any longer...but you STILL revere what them harity Hebrews thought about when it comes to morals...or sex....or ANYTHING? Maybe it´s way past time our morals caught up with our sense of hygeine...or chocolate or ANYTHING. Jews thought wild honey and live bugs were a delicacy...do you?”
>
>---Well, when I studied the Qur’an and Islam in general, self-sacrifice was one element – though slightly different than the traditional Christian way.

...Muslims do NOT see laying down and dying as a way to save yourself...Muhammad was hemmed in by enemies too...all of them seeking to destroy him. Had he found himself under arrest by an Emperor...he would have URGED his followers to rescue him...this is normal.

For example, there is one of the 5 pillars of Islam – almsgiving/charity. There is also Jihad, which is using various means to protect Islam (does not have to be violent, it can be literary). There is also ramazan, which requires people to sacrifice nourishing their bodies during daylight hours.

...and these are nothing new either...fasting...alms...renewal are all as old as the hills and older. You are missing the CORE of Christian belief.
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>
>“..when you have to fight, you should fight. You should put it off as much as possible...find any way out of the dilemna...but if it´s necessary then fight in such a way as the NEXT time your opponents will remember it and try desperately to find another solution rather than tackle you again. Marshimun was a fool to believe the British...or to believe Jesus for that matter...believing as Jesus did gets you JUST what Jesus got...he said so...he never said you´d get good jobs or land or win the lottery if you followed him..he SAID you´d wind up being sacrificed...but that it was okay cause you´d get to see yahewh when you died...does an intelligent person WANT to see yahweh...under ANY circumstances?”
>
>---No. I agree with you. I never said sitting around will get anyone anything. I personally have found my success has come in doing – and I believe the doing has been blessed.

...by whom?
>
>
>“...to fight meaningfully...yes we have. We only beat up on each other..that´s because we´re the only ones we´re sure are weak and stupid enough to match us...any REAL fight or endeavor and we stay way the hell away from it.”
>
>---No, I agree.
>
>
>“...as Confucious said..."Put your faith in one hand and spit in the other and see which fills up faster." Of course you have faith...you NEED to...because there isn´t anything practical you can think of do...there´s a boulder blocking your path..you have no idea how to move boulders...you´re too weak alone and you can´t find anyone to help you...what´s left to you BUT faith? Faith that somehow a Jew will come move it for you?”
>
>---I guess you didn’t get the joke. It was from Jeff’s post where he talked about faith. I have myself and my faith. I don’t rely on one and not the other. But as the state of our people and the world in general, I have my plans. I wish certain people would stay alive to see what I want to do. The majority of my life has been spent dealing with non-Assyrians. I know how to put forth things that the world will respect. I know how to win outside my people. That’s what makes me different. Most of our people have retrogressed into crabs in a barrel (“You ain’t getting out until I do first”). One pulls down another to succeed. That’s not the way I work.

...that`s very wise of you.
>
>
>KHAYA ASHUR,
>
>Donald



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