The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum

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Posted by pancho (Guest) - Saturday, January 7 2006, 17:12:41 (CET)
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Farid:
"...since the majority of the Jews who had the benefit of seeing and hearing Jesus preach were unimpressed by his message, it would argue that no one else was much impressed hearing it second and third hand years later. The eastern church has its own mythology..or lies. It says that everywhere it went people converted...where? In China? In Japan? in India? There are a few Christians in these places..about what you`d get if a close knit bunch of converted Jews screwed each other only for 2000 years...the next lie is that there were really millions and millions BUT...those nasty Muslims killed them all...give us a break! They can find a lone grave...where are all those millions and millions of skeletal remains?"

-That's a fallacy. You can't say because this is true for these people it is also true for these people. Like I said, I don't hate Muslims - I have Muslim friends, but you're saying Muslims didn't kill our people.

...every one has killed everyone.

...how do you explain so many Jews who had the benefit of hearing this wonderful message first-hand remaining unimpressed? The church taught hatred of them forever because they were so "debased" as not be impressed...and how is it that today, with all the benfits of modern media, over half the world is STILL not impressed? How is it that today, wherever people HEAR the message of Jesus they DON´T dump their own religions? Rather than hating the Jews or warning people of dire consequences if they refuse this message, you all should look at the MESSAGE and see there isn´t anything at all impressive about it.

Who massacred Mar Shimon Benyamin and 110 of his guards?

...who assasinated the NEXT Marshimun? While you can make a case that Kurds are "just like that"...what do you say about the CHRISTIAN who murdered Marshimun? Would you say Christians are "just like that"? I doubt it..let me tell you what you´d say..."he got it WRONG".

I know very well what happened because that is my family and it did not happen hundreds or thousands of years ago for me to sit there and question it.

...it happened to my family as well. It happened and IS happening to LOTS of families.

And then what about the document of "Peace" that was signed by MUHAMMAD and our Patriarch and bishops? What happened before one of the Assyrian massacres roughly a hundred or so years ago? The Turks destroyed the document of peace between us and the Muslims and massacred us. I'm not saying they did it in the true spirit of Islam because obviously that refutes the purpose of that treaty, but we were not killed by Buddhists in this case...they were Muslims and this is close enough in history for the word to have come down to me unscathed.

..like I said, you have been encouraged to pick at your scabs forever. If you people read more than tatian and Syriac manuscripts you might get sight of the larger picture....which shows brother killing brother and raping sister since the beginning of time..certainly since the beginning of the Christian era...what do you call a war in which citizen kills citizen..and we´re talking about the SAME religion? It´s called a civil war...there have been thousands of them...and people try to put it behind them as fast as they can and get down to living in the present.

And a lot of the Muslims I know admit that such things happened and are sorry that they did. Regardless, that's not a part of my main point and is out of the scope of the original conversation. Besides, it's in the past. Today, I strive to make friends and make peace with all and so did my parents. Simply being Muslim or Jew or catholic or atheist doesn't mean I'm not going to be friends with the person. Yeshua himself said to also love those who hate you,

...you may want to ask yourself WHY they hate you first.

and that the publicans show favor to those who show them favor as well, so what makes them so righteous. Assyrians before Yeshua believed this as well. It's not my fault people don't follow those ideas and go and kill people in the name of whatever.

..of course not.

Farid:
"...and "restaurant" in our language simply means restaurant...it is a French word that`s entered the English language...it doesn`t make the Brits FRENCH. The Hebrews and Egyptians used Aramaic too...and Aramaic is the language of ARAM...not Assyria."

-No, there is no such thing as an "aramaic" language. There WAS an aramaic dialect. After posting this message I will send you an email of an abridged dictionary of the Assyrian "Akkadian" language and then the Eastern neo-Assyrian and Western neo-Assyrian languages which are nearly the same exact thing.

...my point was that just because msheekha exists in "our" language doesn´t mean the CONCEPT and belief in a Jewish Messiah was also expressed. We also had a word for "idiot"...doesn´t mean we WERE idiots...or BELIEVED in idiocies.

Farid:
"...Ashur is not and never was the ONE and ONLY God...not even yahwe says he is the ONLY god. Ashur was god when there were MANY gods and respect was shown to them ALL...there are STILL many gods, only we don´t respect them all because we this mindless fetish, born of being crowded into empires where ONE ruler ruled over several people he never heard of or saw, of insisting there MUST be only one god...there are MANY gods today..alive and doing well...and that is as it SHOULD be...a god, to be real MUST grow from the experience of his followers..it is simply arrogance and a devotion to brutal force to say there must be ONE god...why must there be?

...Monotheism has made people murderously intolerant..that is the only gift it has given us..it was implemented by Tyrants who insisted on their RIGHT to rule over the lives of strangers...to force THEIR ways on everyone...Christianity has KILLED the natural spirituality of millions of people round the world..reducing them to caricatures of their former selves while halting their natural progression."

-Ah ha. Thank you. Now I know what you think. We weren't comparing apples to apples, but apples to spaghetti.

...that´s the whole point of an exchange such as this...to find OUT what each thinks...but you´re expected to RESPOND...not merely turn away.

I'm not saying what you think is wrong. It is the truth to you and I'm happy you're unlike some others and didn't disrespect me for my beliefs; I respect you for yours (really). I have found my truth. We can't compare ideologies because we don't have the same fundamental idea of God/Ashur.

...we can COMMENT on each other´s idiologies...you do not have to be in agreement to discuss...I don´t want to discuss church liturgy with you...we were discussing the REASONS for such beliefs.

Farid:
"...it is easy, as well as the height of hypocrisy, to call everyone who doesn`t agree with you "misguided"...just because someone does not agree with YOU does not mean they are wrong...this thinking of yours is similar to what an emperor would think...and it was emperors who spread Christianity."

-No, I didn't say people worshipping in gods makes them bad people. That's their way of life...their culture. Good for them. The "misguided" people I was referring to were the translators who took our tablets, not knowing jack about culture, and proceeded to call our God, gods.

...come on...there WERE several gods back then. You´re trying to cover up what WASN´T a crime back then. No one back then minded having separate gods...you´re using your devotion to monotheism to re-write our history..we had TONS of gods and loved them all...Ishtar was NOT Ashur...she wasn´t Jesus either.

And I'm noticing something about your messages to me. You're putting words in my mouth. It's as if you believe I have hidden or underlying meanings in my words intended to crap on everybody in the world. Get over it Farid. You act as if anybody that talks to you is a proselytizer or something and they're coming to get you or make you christian.

...well you DO use the word Evangelical way too much. You DO believe Jesus said to spread his message etc. My position is that Christianity has been the greatest scourge the world has ever seen...that it has produced the self-rightrous and pious MOTHER of all excuses to go kill people..that it is a religion BORN in murder, not life otr resurrection...since NOTHING could have happened if a man was not FIRST murdered...if he was not FIRST killed...so the resurrection could take place and impres you all so. I´m compelled by the facts before me to try to understand why Christians kill...why they kill all those of other faiths and then go kill EACH OTHER. No one...no one has killed more Christians than OTHER Christians...and it puzzles me and scares me when I hear Christians dreaming out loud of of Judgement Day and how GLORIOUS it will be when the world errupts in flames and bloodshed...these people are NOT preparing for peace but for TOTAL war! It is the "peace" of the cemetary they seek...this makes then dangerous and their behavior SHOWS how dangerous they are.

What you're doing is projecting. It seems like you've engaged in similar conversations so much you're just waiting to hear the same things from me. Did you get robbed by a priest or something?

...they did try to rob me of Reason...but it didn´t work.

Like I said, one reason I engaged conversation with you was in hope that maybe you could not say something like "F so and so" with expletives aimed at central figures of people's beliefs. And since you've been nice enough to do so, I really don't have anything else to say concerning religion. I usually don't walk up to people and question their beliefs since most conversations about religion or politics usually end in arguments for most people.

...yes they do.

Farid:
"...since the people who HAVE all those names would disagree with you...let it slide...this proves nothing..it is only more of your attempt to foist your beliefs on others...YOU are saying THEY have "different" names for ONE god..they don´t see it that way...they certainly wouldn´t accept your notion that what they`re really praying to is Ashur...this is YOUR fetish..and like I said, momotheisn has made YOU murderously certain that YOU have the truth...let people have their own gods...stop renaming them...with whatever language. We also have a word for garbage in our language..granted it isn`t the SAME word in every language, but it means GARBAGE...which is exactly what this "argument" of your`s amounts to...everything that is a truth JUST happens to come out of YOUR mouth. What a fortunate coincidence for you!"

-Some will agree and some will disagree, good for them. It's funny how I know so many Muslims that agree though. And no...I'm not murderously certain that everything that comes out of my mouth is truth. You made that assumption. I said it's the truth FOR ME. That's why I get along with people of other faith or no faith or different ideology. They have what's right FOR THEM, and I have what's right FOR ME. The thing with you in the first reply was that you also seem certain you've discovered certain truth by crapping on everything else. What's true is true for you, not for me or everyone else. That was the main point I was trying to illustrate.

...I don´t believe in religions...they are all irrational by nature, they HAVE to be..and I distrust any "teacher" who insists you must hand over your Reason...or not develop it for it is an enemy of FAITH.

Farid:
"...you are good at sophistry....all your tribe are...that is...you are good at SEEMING wisdom. No doubt you have the capacity to go all the way, but not till you stop expending energy on such trifles and concentrate your mental power...till then you`re stradling two concepts which are in grave contradiction..."

-No. I never claimed to be all-wise. You just associate me with all the other people you debate with on the net that may or may not attempt to do so.

...none of them were wise either.

Farid:
"...like most Hebrews he was woefully ignorant of the world outside his borders. Besides which...you have no way of knowing WHAT he said. I`ll bet you`ve spent more hours going over what`s in the bible..a book written by NONE of the people mentioned in it...but rather written down by the docks in Alexandria by some Jews a couple of hundred years later...or others who never met or knew or heard the voice of the people THEY told you said this and that...it`s interesting how many of you pour over that compilation of butcheries and nonsense but IGNORE the thouands of tablets written by OUR PEOPLE in their OWN hand!!! All over the world in museums and vaults the words of our OWN people have been locked away...not words written by someone else 300 years AFTER the event...does this square with your contention that Ashur and Jesus are one? You don`t even know what Jesus said but are SO hot to believe what other`s tell you...while at the same time you have NO interest in what Assyrians ACTUALLY said. Go...and sin no more."

-Like I said, that's what you believe. I actually spend a lot of time trying to get my hands on anything that's "ancient." I've recently started spending time trying to read different types of cuneiform so I can get my hands on some tablets and do translating myself...instead of some white cat in Kansas who rewrites our history from his room without knowing a word of ancient Assyrian. Again, you are projecting because you perceive my one discussion with you to be the end-all be-all of discussions between you and I and to be the only thing I know.

...glad to hear you have an interest in something Assyrian. Like I said, Go... and sin no more.

Farid:
"...Gee...I wonder who wrote the "new studies"?
..when you come up with a source that contradicts the bible...which says they were SLAVES...you should cite it...or is your word good enough for everything?"

-It was on the history channel on a special concerning Egyptians and also Jews. What, the Jews are now contradicting their own book because now they're strong and can refute things they feel lower themselves?

..Jews praise themselves for being so "bold" as to show their warts in their bible...it´s just too neat and clean to "discover" they were "highly paid technicians" all of a sudden...everyone dreams of re-writing their history...look at you. There´s even an attempt being made to re-write the history of the last Nazi Pope..the one who made the deal with Hitler...Murdoch, or one of them, has had "new studies" released in which they "prove" there was no such deal...even the American military plants articles...so, yes...when people CAN do it...they WILL re-write their history. Just because you find it incredible doesn´t make it so.

Again, you're projecting. I don't care what beef you had with Aprim or whoever else you chat with on the net. I'm not them. I never said I know everything and my words come with a seal of approval that says it's good enough.

...good. Unlike Paul and others, you manage to remain rational. They all started out as if they COULD...but were soon howling at the moon and sprinkling pixie dust. I am always amazed that people who disdain Reason and PRAISE fath and illogic seem to feel the NEED to act as if anything they say should make SENSE...why not just smear war paint on, chant and be done with it? Why even BOTHER to appear to be rational?

Farid:
"...and the only thing between Mexico and The United States is that river called the Rio Grande...do YOU see any significant difference between the two shores?"

-You're introducing so many new things into the original discussion. That's why I can't answer everything, it takes too much time. Before Euros came here, there was no US and Mexico. It was inhabited by various tribes of people who were later called "Native Americans" and even "Indians." What does this have to do with the discussion?

...that there can be great difference between two shores of a river. Crossing over the Rio Grande into United States can be as different as crossing over from Mesopotamia to Judea...more than water separates the two.

Farid:
"...the Jews got NOTHING on lock...they have been driven from pillar to post since the beginning...the most abused people in the WORLD and at no time more so than when the Christians took off after them..and finally caught them 60 years ago."

Hahahahaha. That's hilarious. "..and finally caught them." Hahaha, it's like you're referring to a fly. Side question: Have you read Saddam's book where he equates them?

...have you read Mien Kampf?...that was written by a Christian. Jews lived in peace in Iraq...Jews did NOT live in peace in Germany...or for long anywhere in Christian lands..and yes, the Christians DID finally catch the Jews...they placed them in Aushcwitz and Bergen Belsen and a few other camps where they systematically cooked them. Was it, "Hahahaha", hilarious?

Farid:
..would you have a problem with a Christian being a Muslim? If you are a monotheist you can`t be Assyrian AND Christian...that`s TWO gods...you have to choose."

-I don't care what people believe as long it doesn't hurt me or others. It means nothing to me. Polytheistic, monotheistic, atheistic, I don't care.

...that wasn´t the question. The question was, how can you follow TWO gods if you are a monotheist? Would you accept a Jewish Christian? A Muslim Christian? You people can´t accept an "Assyrio-Chaldean"...who is supposedly BOTH of one ethnicity..you say she must CHOOSE which...that to be "Chaldean" is wrong...that it simply means "Assyrian" anyway...so how come you can believe in TWO gods? The name of the religion contains the name of the god...CHRIST-ians are those who follow Christ...YAHWE-ists are those who follow yahwe...BUDDHA-ists are those who follow Buddha...MUHAMMED-ans are those who follow Muhammad...guess which god ASHUR-ians follow? You can mash the two together if it makes you feel better...but it is still true that you give precedence to the Jew...no Assyrian EVER did that.

Farid:
"..how come Jesus has a personal message for YOU...what happened to Ashur...has he nothing to tell you...except to listen to Jesus?"

-You said yourself many of the things Yeshua said like love were around before and practiced by Assyrians. I do read things written by the ancient Assyrians as I stated above. I follow them.

...yes but you are in the odd position of prefering to attend to the pupil instead of the master who TAUGHT the pupil. You´ll be hard pressed to get out of college that way.

Farid:
"...my mother has cancer...right now. I thank her doctors for treating her and I would DAMN an all powerful god for giving her the cancer....if I had the power to heal I wouldn`t walk into a ward at a children`s hospital and heal ONE child out of thirty...I`d heal them ALL and I`d blast cancer off the face of the earth. A son of mine also had cancer and his pious grandmother dared say, in my presence, "praise to god for curing him"...at which I said back to her, "you can thank the DOCTORS for healing him..and DAMN god for sending us cancer"! We never got along."

I'm sorry to hear that. You've got good doctors. Only you paid for the treatment and my mother didn't. No doctor was able to help her concerning that. And about you healing everyone if you could...I would do the same.

...but your god won´t. What would you think of a parent whose child comes running with a cut finger to...who first says the child must express faith and gratitude and swear loyalty to HIM, BEFORE he will put a band-aid on her finger...and that if she doesn´t...she can just go to her room and bleed? Not much of a parent...not much of a god.

Farid:
"...doctors don`t have the power to invent cancers...if they found they`d done so inadvertantly, they`d rush to stop the damage.,..but not God...he invented all these plagues and THEN wants the praise when a doctor fights HIM to kill a cancer. This is childish stuff. There are many things I can`t explain...if everyone who touched themselves would be healed as your mother was...who WOULDN`T do it? There are many unexplained things in Life...as there were 20,000 years ago..and the people back THEN chose to believe in spirits and demons who healed some and ignored others...but this isn`t 20,000 years ago and I`m NOT a Hottentot! Although we still can`t explain much, we know BETTER than to dance around a totem pole howling at the moon."

-No but we have corporations and governments that favor corporations who feed us BS chemical foods rather than natural stuff simply because it makes them money.

...yes...but that too wasn´t the point.

Farid:
"..and your`s is that of a Jew and mine is that of an Assyrian. It is YOUR religion that roams the world telling people it is the ONLY true one...Assyrians never did that...religion has degenerated since then, it`s become a tool of imperialism and absolutism...the Assyrians were NEVER like that. When they conquered, they made room for all new gods..they knew how to respect people and their own cutlures and gods especially."

-The actions of individuals do not account for the actions or words of the originators or of the whole.

..they are not individuals..it is an EVANGELICAL religion...it praises itself for sending MISSIONARIES..at other times you BRAG about how you went to China and everywhere else and SPREAD the message.

Farid:
"...these words are used by Christians all the time..usually when refering to the people from OUR part of the world."

-The actions of individuals do not account for the actions or words of the originators or of the whole.

..as a WHOLE your religion has been the bloodiest scouge the world has ever seen. And the whole IS responsible for the actions of individuals...you can´t simply say the Christians who turned to killing Jews BECAUSE the church taught them to, got it wrong and acted as individuals.

Farid:
"...exactly...every family burns out in time...every empire peaks and then slides back...there is no longer a Spanish Empire..or Roman Empire or British Empire...this is normal. No People can carry the entire burden for long."

(No group of people in their right mind would let go of something that great after so many years.)-Don

"..they didn`t let go...it was taken from them because they became complacent...and because the tribes surging at the borders of the civilized centers were ever growing..it`s been the pattern in history."

(And even if they civilized the world just to civilize it and give it a gift and then withdraw, they wouldn't ALSO give up their own country.)-Don

"..they didn`t. For whatever reason, most of them converted eventually to Ialam and built the NEXT great empire...the Islamic Empire centered in Baghdad...ten feet from Babylon and all the world away from Mecca....the Sumerians were once overcome by a dessert tribe...you may have heard of Sargon The Great...it happened all the time. The descendants of the Assyrians and others are still in Iraq...which is nothing more than Uruk..and they will survive this present set of barbarians too."

-OK, either they fall or they didn't. Make up your mind. Also, Sargon was not an Arab...we was called Sargon Agidu, or Agida (english Sargon of Akkad).

...who said he was? I said he came from the dessert...many people came from there...you all resent the MUSLIMS who came from the dessert...you embrace Sargon and Hammurabi because they came BEFORE Christ...before Muhammad drove Christ out. Had the people of Sumer been Christian you´d HATE the later Assyrians...because they drove Christ OUT! That´s all this about...your resentment that Jesus got the old heave-ho. The Muslim army and leaders did nothing different than what Sargon and Hammurabi and several other people did...they came from the dessert, brought new ways and new gods, mixed with the settled populations and created a NEW and more energetic mixture from the tired old stock...all this anger is simply because Christ got out in his place.

And even though the exact site of Akkad is unknown, it is believed that it certainly existed north of Ur closer to present-day Baghdad. You are correct about the descendents of Assyrians living in Iraq...but not all of them are ethnically Assyrian nor would care to be called that...even if they are Muslims and are really Assyrian. In fact, only tribes of the Shiites in Iraq have really stepped up to call themselves Assyrians. Not all Shiites do and Sunnis have never cared to call themselves Assyrians, especially the Tikritis who were converted to Islam roughly 180 years ago.

...no Muslim can comfortably call himself Assyrian so long as YOU define it as "Christian". Muslims of Iraq accept their distant ancestors as being Assyrian...before this latest Christian jihad against the Holy Land, Iraq´s official website mentioned the Assyrians AND on the homepage showed Assyrian symbols PLUS the cross! Do you think Christians would show the Cresecent if they had an "Assyria" where Uruk is now? Do you think "Assyrians" would mention the glorious Islamic Empire that followed the glorious Assyrian and Babylonian and Chaldean and Persian empire? I doubt it.

Farid:
"...it says no such thing...people invent gods..not the other way around. Man created god in HIS image..anything else is a gross insult to the deity..you can thank Twain for that. The Assyrians CREATED their god, not the other way around...Ashur grew out of US...That`s why he inspired us so. It`s the way with EVERY god...that`s why it`s so wrong to impose a foreign god on a People..you kill their spirit...you kill their imagination..you kill their inspiration...but you get better subjects."

-As I said further up, thanks for letting me know that's how you think. There is a fundamental difference in our idea/concept of God. Even if I did not believe in Yeshua and I was let's say Muslim, we really could not compare ideologies because you believe humans created gods while I believe God created us. Yours is a material notion while mine is a scientifically unprovable notion.

...mine is based on scientific fact...your´s is based on a fear of the dark.

That's why I said it's apples to spaghetti. I'm not crapping on your for believing what you believe, it's just that our ideas on this are too different.

...yes, but I can still DISCUSS religion...can you discuss Reason?

Farid:
"If you`re going to give me the tired old argument that since Islam was born in Arabia, ANY Muslim anywhere in the world must be an ARAB...then I`ll tell you any Christian anywhere in the world is an ISRAELI...because Christianity was born in Israel...does that make any sense to you?

-Islam was born in Arabia and flourished in Assyria. MANY Assyrians coverted to it, yet instead of still being called Assyria, those British came and called it Iraq in 1926, after the city called Uruk.

...I´ve been told it had a different name from the time of the Ottomans at least.

Between the 700s and early 1900s, the most Assyrians converted to it, the most Iraq, or really Assyria became called an "Arab" nation. I don't care the religion is attributed to Muhammad. Once again you're projecting by thinking that's something that bothers me. I just don't like that we had to be renamed. You keep saying "why you gotta rename Ashur" but you don't care we were renamed to Arab.

...we were renamed Arab. This is your complaint because Iraqis dared to say they too are descended from the ancient Assyrians BUT that they are a part of the ARAB world. Every Muslim in the MidEast is mindfull of his and her own national identity and proud and jealous of it. The designation of Muslims countries of the MidEast as ARAB was simply in response to the collective threat faced by them from the EUROPEANS...who made no bones about hating ISLAM and coveting the resources of Muslim lands...faced with such a monolith, Muslim nations of the MidEast came together under their own name of ARAB...so that it became a Euro-Arab confrontation...there is comfort and also strength in numbers...but also in unity. If the Christians of France and England and Germany and Russia and Austria were going to come as EUROPEAN-CHRISTIANS, then the Muslims of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Arabia were going to face them and defend themselves as ARAB-MUSLIMS.

...The Muslims of Mongolia and Indonesia are NOT Arabs and never said they are.

...It is also a LANGUAGE group...a group of independent nations linked by a common language...Iran is NOT an Arab nation just because it has a religion FROM Arabia.

People speak English in England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, New Guinea, Australia, New Zealand, The United States and Canada...they are part of the ENGLISH SPEAKING WORLD who also happen to be part of the CHRISTIAN RELIGION...yet Canadians are NOT Australians...they are also NOT Israelis or Jews because their RELIGION comes from Israel.

Farid:
"...very few Arabs came out of Arabia to conquer BetNahrain..and there were Arabs already there who were NOT Muslim...the majority of Muslims in later years were converts to Islam....for Islam is much closer to the Assyrian experience than Christianity is....when Assyrians saw the conquering Muslim army they saw something they KNEW and felt comfortable with..to get back on horseback, grab a sword and go conquer and create another empire...whereas the Christians on their knees eating dust must have been a strange sight indeed."

-Yes, the "Arabs" creeping into Assyria was a phenomenon that was slowly occurring even slightly before Muhammad.

...they no more "crept" into Assyria than your family crept into America...they MOVED.

However, they went by tribal names, not the name "Arab."

..of course..not even ARABS recognized anything called "Arab"...T.E Lawrence lamented that there was no way on earth to unite the "Arabs" of ARABIA...that each tribe held on jealously to their tribal name....the people of Arabia had NO sense of themselves as belonging to a nation called Arabia...and that is even more true for Muslims" the further they get from Arabia proper. The Pan_Arab movement that started all of this was merely a political response to a growing reality of pan-Christian EUROPEANISM that was hungering after the resources they are STILL killing us for.

..you all scream about UNITING in order to be STRONG...is it any different than what the Muslims of the region sought to do by forming ONE common identity? Don´t you all go on and on about the importance of being UNIFIED? That´s all being "Arab" meant...and it only recently came into existence as a word to describe a group of people...and at that only for political purposes of self-defense against the Christian Killing Machine.

Assyrians gave Arabs language, gave them architecture, math, science, everything. That's the only reason the Islamic conquest prospered.

..and the only reason Betnahrain remained free of Byzantine dominance is because Islam taught Assyrians to FIGHT once more..it got them OFF their knees where they´d been praying for salvation and onto horseback again...had the Arabs NOT settled that region, the Byzantine Romans would have taken it and killed ALL of you for Heretics! You can thank Muhammad that you were conquered by people who didn´t much care WHICH version of Christ you wanted to pray to, so long as you kept the peace and stopped breaking each others skulls over mindless details...the Byzantines would have allowed you no such freedom...there´s a good reason their very name came to be in the dcitionary for cruel and monstrous CRUELTY!

And most of the helpers of Islam were not non-Christian Assyrians, they were Assyrians of the Church of the East. For evidence of this, read the books by W. Montegomery Watt who speaks extensively on Islam and detailed how civilization was given to Arabs and Islam via the Assyrians of the Church of the East (the incorrect term nestorian is sometimes used).

..Nestorian is only "incorrect" now...in the modern era...you people DIED for the belief sysetm of Nestor once upon a time. Now you turn your back on IT as well. I don´t read Syriac manuscripts as anything but Christian mythology and I don´t read missionaries as well for the same reason..and while we´re at it there is no such thing as a Christian "intellectual"..it´s a gross contradiction in terms..might as well talk about a Voodoo Intellectual from the island of Haiti who knows the 12 steps to assuring divine grace by wringing the neck of a pure rooster...give me a break!

They could have come through with all the swords and horses they wanted to, but if we didn't give them water and all the things needed for society, Islam would have been nothing today.

..as Sargon would have been nothing...so what.

Farid:
"...they don`t, Iraq has NEVER denied its Assyrian roots...NEVER. You`re just angry because they ALSO attribute the last 1400 years and the magnificent empire and culture they built to their inspiration under MUHAMMAD..this is what drives you Christians crazy...yet you don`t mind at all when Sargon the Great or Hammurabi rides out of the dessert and conquers our homeland..and mixes his blood and beliefs ands makes something even greater...Assyria as an empire even, didn`t die in 600 BC...it took a long break...as had happened before in dark times...and re-emerged with the advent of a youthful new faith ALSO from the dessert, brought by a vigorous and energetic new people, ALSO from the dessert...the SAME desserts Sargon and Hammurabi came from...and the greatest civilization of the Medeival World was born...and took Assyrian and Persian and Babylonian art and culture and science and technology all across Europe to Spain..from which it eventually spread to the savage Christians of Europe AND was taken across the sea by the Spaniards...who had 700 years worth of Arab/Mesopotamian blood and culture in their veins, to the New World."

-Oh really? Have you seen the Iraqi constitution. "This country is an Arab country."

..the United States is a CHRISTIAN country...so what?

They are also a part of the Arab League. Part of their rhetoric is that all those lands have forever been occupied by Arabs. Man please, northern Africa was African. Now they consider themselves Arab? Just like you don't like religion forced on you, I don't like ethnicity forced on me.

...no one denies you ANCIENT roots...it´s the abusrd claim that you DIRECTLY descended from the ancients that makes people laugh...me too. The ancient Assyrians mixed with EVERYONE..there was no "pure" back then. You don´t mind being part of an American League...you don´t mind being part of a Christian League...so why so bothered by their´s?

Farid:
"...of course it happened...those two rivers ALWAYS flood...so does the Nile. The pissant Jordan..which is hardly a "river"...couldn`t flood if every Hebrew pissed in it at the same time!"

-That shows you do not know what I am saying. I was referring to the long Ice Ages followed by melting of the continental ice and then melting of the polar ice caps. Also, every 400,000 years or so,

...you show me where you mentioned an Ice Age in your post?

the earth aligns itself with one of two stars. What is called the "north star" is actually one of two. That partially contributes to the change in earth's temperature. Other conditions also affect that. When the polar ice caps melt completely, the "pissant" Jordan doesn't just flood, much of the whole earth does. I'm talking sea levels hundreds of feet above the land.

...there is no evidence of any grand flooding in Judea peoper...you´re bending over backwards again to accomodate a Jew religion when there was glorious flooding regularly in Mesopotamia.

..of course there were floods. The story is a MYTH. The floods were REAL. While ancient Assyrians had the story first and the Sumerians before that...we modern Assyrians no longer believe any god would kill all animals even because he was angry over his OWN creations...humans that is. These were made up by people at THAT time...they are a reflection of the state of their minds THEN...it is only you Christians who INSIST these fairy tales were REAL and, more than that, that we must go ON believing they were real!

Farid:
"...I am seeing my mother healed...I saw my son healed...BUT...I have seen MILLIONS killed for no good reason...let your god take credit for all of THEM too...and I`ll give him credit for your mother."

-You must have good doctors. Doctors weren't able to do jack for my mother. She was healed, and there was no several thousand dollar bill to pay either. Faith did it.

...there are several unexplained instances of terminal cancers and other diseases stopping all on their own..you can atribute it to a god if you want to...but that sort of thinking would have stopped human development at the same point when humans believed a wild rooster started it all.

...miracles abound on all sides...in a blade of grass...in rain water...and in a tumor too...it is the essence of primitiveness to see miracles ONLY when Natural Law is suspended for YOU...by a GOD...who loves YOU and not your neighbor who never heard of him.

...water is a miracle all unto itself..only a primitive mind without the knowledge or tools or books or antecedents to KNOW that would see water as only a place where dinner swims...but that sort of primitive person WOULD see a "miracle" when someone WALKED on water!

..the more science reveals mysteries to us the MORE miraculous Life becomes...there is NO more person earth today likely to believe in the TRUE mystery and miracle of Life than the scientist...or the poet who refuses to be taken in by cheap carnival tricks of the sort the church insists are "miracles".

..there is indeed a great mystery behind all of this..BUT, that does NOT mean that a person who can´t balance his CHECKBOOK is the one to EXPLAIN the mystery. The only honest thing to say is, "I don´t know"...and live a decent and good life on earth...for the earth will never come into its own UNTIL we kill heaven...that´s the glorious lesson of the Epic of Gilgamesh...a far grander vision of the Infinite than that collection of butcheries known as the bible.

...will have to end here...the natives behind my back are getting restless.....the rest later.

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The full topic:

partial answer pancho - Saturday, January 7 2006, 17:12:41 (CET)
- Don pancho - 01/08 02:59
- Re: partial answer Don - 01/10 05:50
  - Re: partial answer pancho - 01/10 18:39
    - here`s LATER pancho - 01/10 22:58
      - Re: here`s LATER Maggie - 01/10 23:42
        Re: here`s LATER Don - 01/15 07:43

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