|response at "Son Of Aina"|
- Wednesday, November 22 2006, 19:21:53 (CET)|
from 188.8.131.52 - pool-71-116-95-156.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net Network - Mac OS - Internet Explorer
You seem to justify all kinds of horrific crimes
...not at all...I simply want us to admit that all people and religions are commtting crimes...you want to pretend that only Muslims commit crimes.
but yet you condemn the desire for freedom from oppressive dictators and regimes.
...no. There are millions of Americans who want to be released from the evil regime of Bush. Saddam was a crimial...but he was America's criminal,,he is one more in a long list of tyrants the United States usues who abuses his people. I don't see where the new puppets of the United States are any better than the old ones. Life in Iraq for both Muslims and Christians was never like this...you are all complaining that the Kurds have taken and made Kurdistan...who helped them? Under Saddam this never would have happened...you all say Saddam persecuted Christians...I say the majority of our people chose to remain in Iraq and did quite well all these years and that the mass exodus that started this time was caused by Christians bringing war to Iraq..just as we lost our status and Millat system in the Ottoman empire due to that other war they brought...it's absurd to say I like dictators...look at all the trouble we're already having on this forum for just talking freely.
I wonder is it just when Assyrian Christians do it, you point the finger but if it was an Arab Muslim wanting freedom from oppression that would be okay with you?
...I don't see where this war has brought you any freedom...the Christians of Iraq are now subject to majority Shiaa rule...somthing Saddam didn't allow...he also fought the Kurds tooth and nail...under the old rule there would have been no Kurdistan and all the murdered Assyrians would be alive and all those who've left would still be there...just how did you think this would bring you freedom?
And FYI, If someone is accused of sedition then the morally correct government should prosecute JUST those actually doing it, should have a fair trial and due process, and the government is not allowed to go in and wipe out their village including innocent men, women and children.
...tell that to the United States. The attack on Iraq wasn't justified by 9/11...there were no Iraqis in that group...why didn't the United States attack Saudi Arabia...fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were Saudis. What had Iraq done? More to the point, what had the children of Iraq done that 600,000 of them were starved to death? What had Iraq done to America to deserve this?
Why don't you complain of others for the Assyrian Christians were meek compared to others in the country who weren't a fraction as oppressed as they were.
..like I said, the overwhelming majority of our people chose to remain in Iraq all these centuries...during the 6os and 70s and 80s and 90s they too could have left Iraq...left because they were being "persecuted"...but they didn't. Those of you who felt the urge to leave did so for a variety of reasons but persecution wasn't one of them...except for the handful who engaged in "political activity" where that activity consisted of calling Muslims in Iraq "usurpers" and calling on the world to "save them" and demanding parts of the country...like I said, those actions would get you thrown in jail anywhere in the world...it took Bush to make Dr Donny George leave Iraq...you people say these things because you wanted more power for your religion in Iraq.
What about the Kurds and getting Kurdistan, does that fit your definition of sedition and are you going to complain about them too for not wanting to be oppressed and gassed by Sadam?
...Saddam got his gas from the United States. I said in international relations it is the norm to steal whatever you want...we're not talking about justice here...we're talking about realities. George Washington preached and practised sedition..had the British caught him at any time they would have hanged him from the nearest tree..if they'd caught him 300 years before they would have drawn and quartered him..like Wallace. Washington KNEW he was breaking the law..he wouldn't have been surprised at all or cried about if he'd been captured....of course he committed sedition...how else would you have change through revolution...I'm saying you should not be surprised when you are punished for sedition...you shouldn't pretend you were innocent and did nothing to deserve it.
Weren't every group except for the Sunnis even more seditious than you are claiming Assyrians supposedly were and since Sadam is saying they weren't, and he was the government, were do you get off falsely painting them otherwise.
...yes and they suffered for it too under Saddam...where have you been? If you speak or write that Iraq belongs to Christians and urge them or appeal to the world to do somthing about it...then you are committing sedition. As things turned out it would have been in Iraq's interest to have killed you all...because the foreign Christians HAVE come...they didn't come because you asked them to...but how can a Muslim leader ever be sure? We're talking practical realities...you are a faith-based person.
And weren't the Shia also complaining about their government and do you agree that it was alright for Sadam to just kidnap, torture and murder people for opinions or without proof of so called sedition.
..of course it isn't right...but the Christians now attacking Iraq are guilty of far greater crimes and in a much shorter period of time...if you don't mind their crimes...why should you mind Saddam's? I'm condemning ALL such crimes..it seems YOU are the one defending tyrants, if they're Christians, and crimes against humanity...but you don't see it that way when Christians are the criminals..that's what you resent: that I should be pointing out Christian crimes...you want to remain focused on Muslim crimes..one more thing: The Iraqis, now, are justified in everything they do...because they are defending their homes from Christian attackers.
Do you justify the brutal dictatorship but not the desire for freedoms?
...I don't see where a Shiaa majority is going to free you. Just the very THOUGHT of bringing democracy to Iraq was enough to make me tremble...you seem to think 500 years of European culture comes automatically with demcoracy..it doesn't. To bring democracy to Iraq means to give power to the Shiaa...something Saddam wouldn't allow...with this sort of majority-rule Christians will do worse, not better. There will be no "Assyria" given to you by anyone...you should know that by now...I don't think you're going to get freedom in the new Iraq...and I don't think the people who stayed through all this wanted what you call "freedom" in the first place...change would have come to Iraq in time...as it did in Britain, the United States and every other country that was given the chance to grow and develop and was able to protect itself better...Iraq had improved vastly from the time it came out from under the Ottomans...they had 400 years under the Ottomans...becomming a free nation overnight, with all the divisions and strains among a population artificially glued together was bound to create problems...but they were working it through slowly...The Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1918...it hasn;t even been 100 years and you expect Iraq to move quickly into parity with Western nations...who themselves were bararbarous just a few years ago...it takes TIME and peace to gain security...but Iraq was never left alone..it's been attacked and interfered with from the beginning...this war has made things worse...only the Shiaa and the Kurds have benefitted from it...two factions Saddam held in check.
Why don't you condemn Sadam for he overthrew a previous government and was seditious then?
..if you can get away with it...it's "legal". My point was that so long as you CAN'T get away with it...or for the period of time it takes you to get away with it, you would be subject to the laws of that government..and every government in power would want it that way. Assyrians were never in a position to seriously challenge the government of Iraq...as they won't be now...therefore to expect to be allowed to say such things and NOT be punished for it is silly...ask Native Americans.
..by the way...Native Americans have been mightily oppressed in America..would YOU give back the land under your house to the Apaches? Would YOU want this injustice corrected at YOUR expense?
Or what about the Iran Islamic movement that seditously overthrew their government? You seem to only point out and exaggerate to boot in my opinion things that can paint Assyrians as bad things, now including sedition.
....you miss the point entirely...I'm not condeming the DESIRE to overthrow any government...I'm just saying you shouldn't be surprised when you advocate such a thing and have not the power to succeed...under those circumstances you only bring more grief to your people...say and do whatever you want but understand that the world knows you will be PROsecuted for it...not PERsecuted.
...Afro-Americans were severely persecuted in America...yet they too had to obey the laws..when they'd had enough and started to fight back, peacefully, they were punished because they broke the Law...the segregated law and the CUSTOMS of the South...in their daily lives they were being PERSECUTED..but when they fought back...even silently resisted by sitting at lunch counters, they were PROSECUTED...not persecuted...things changed for them when the LAWS changed..until then the South was within its legal rights to deny them equal rights...because THEIR state constitutions allowed it..it took the Federal Government to declare those laws illegal and force the change...
...there was never the slightest possibility that Bush was going "save" the Christians of Iraq...we tried to discuss it at the time but none of you would allow it because you had FAITH...just as this was a faith-based war..so too all your "political" insights were merely faith-based wishes..they had no chance in reality...you'd think you'd see that now...
Do you realize that your yelling that and exaggerting and twisting that could cause those over there now problems?
..not at all. On the contrary...as Muslims in Iraq read on the internet that you were begging Bush to go attack their country..and claiming it as yours...and telling the world that they are terrorists and should be wiped out. YOU made it hard for the Christians back there...we even had people calling for the Christians to be ARMED! I was saying the opposite...I condemned the war...said EVERYONE would suffer...said there was no basis in history or fact for any Christians to DEMAND anything in Iraq, but rather to work with the country, as Blacks did in America, to get what they wnated...I was calling for PEACE and resolution...you were calling for JIHAD.
Which makes me wonder why it is so important for you to keep posting almost nonstop this point. Who is it that you are trying to convince of this and why?
...not trying to convince anyone...my target however is all thinking Assyrians who are not obssessed by religion. We can't go on believing every Christian who says he will attack Iraq and free us...we've been told that often enough. We need to create an Assyrian identity that has nothing to do with Christianity...we also need to develop it outside of Betnahrain...we will never get an Assyria...not unless we can steal it and we can't. We need to admit that no Christian entity on earth is going to plunk us down, surrounded by Muslims...you people can barely handle controvery among yourselves..what will you do land-locked together surrounded by Muslims? The reality is that we have made ourselves distrusted in Iraq..because of our BEHAVIOR..not because of our religion...yet it is the religion that has made as talk and act in these ways...so the two are connected..that's why Saddam bulldozed those villages and especially the churches in those villages..because the only "schools" were in those churches...and it was in those schools that these things, sedition and the "purity" of Christian-Assyrians, were taught. They did the same thing in America to Native American schools...the children were removed fom their homes and sent to government run 'schools" so they could be taught what the government wanted them to believe...Saddam had had enough of Iraqi Christians telling him it was THEIR country.
You say they were welcome in Iraq 1500 years ago, which shows you know how complete the invasion was that they were only welcome, and if they were not persecuted as you say then why have their numbers dwindled more than any genocide,
...The Muslims SAVED the Christians sects in Iraq...they forced a truce among them...Muslims didn't understand all the doctrinal niceties that had Christian killing Christian...had the eastern Romans conquered Iraq they would have killed you all as heretics..the Muslims respected Christ and his people..says so in the Quran.
...their numbers dwindled because they revered virginity and chastity ...thousands went into monasteries...people sought personal salvation and interest in family and marriage suffered...plus many many Christians converted to Islam...I've asked you all to bring us PROOF for these claims...not church proof, but evidence from respected historians..so far I've see nothing...why is that? Muslims and Jews practised polygamy and even the children of concubines were legitimate...do the math.
why is their history lost and attriubted to their invaders,
..it isn't. The offcial Iraqi web page showed the cresent, a Lamasu and the cross...would YOU put the symbol of Islam on YOUR official Iraq web page...also in that site they speak of the ancient Assyrians and everyone else who went before them...Iraqis have NEVER denied the historical Assyrians or disrespected them..what they steadily refuse to accept is that YOU are the ONLY descendants of the ancients because you are Christian! And I agree. You've tried to turn Christianity INTO Assyrianism...they aren't fooled and neither are we. Sargon The Great was also an "invader...so was Hammurabi and the Amorites...why do you accept their invasions but not those of the Arabs? Why? because the most recent invaders are MUSLIMS...that's why. Your entire "I am Assyrian" has ONLY to do with your Christian religion..and no Iraqi is going to give your RELIGION any "land".
why is their language and culture almost extinct,
...it isn't. There are churches in Baghdad today where that language is spoken...in America English has been declared the official language...why can't Arabic be the official language of Iraq? The museum in Baghdad proudly displays Assyrian art..they don't call in Arab Art...Iraqi archaeologists participate in world forums with experts from around the world...they'd hardly go there calling Ashurbanipal an Arab....what you resent is when the Muslims say they too are descendants of the Assyrians...because to you any Muslim must be an Arab..because Islam came from Arabia..by that logic you are an Israeli trying to claim Ashurbanipal for your own.
why were their only a few TOKEN Assyrian Chrisitians in the Iraq government and positions of importance, and NONE in most of the other middle eastern countries.
...why were there no African Americans in leadership positions in a democractic and free and liberated America? Why did they have to fight and ask for their rights for so long? Why were women excluded from government and corporate offices for so long? Why? Change comes...it usually comes slowly....Christians in the Mideast have a huge liability because they have made their wishes known too strongly..their wish to be saved by foreign Christians...My father was director of the Health department of Kuwait...and a Christrian. Do you think you'll see more Christians in power now, after this most illegal war? Are you trying to improve conditions or get more martyrs?
Yes the Iraqi people as all Muslim people when not under ruthless regimes are good people and have taken in refuges, but that does not mean years later the goverment didn't still treat them like unwanted guests in their own country or second class or worse citizens,
...my grandafther and many prominant Assyrians in Iraq warned the hotheads NOT to join the Levies...my grandafther fought with Agha Potrous and saw first hand British beytrayals and how they made empty promises..but "nationalists" wouldn't listen...they took British pay, wore British uniforms, carried British weapons and did their dirty work for them...imagine something like that happening in any other country..it was an act of betrayal..of treachery...of collaboration...they were warned by the Assyrian leaders that they were being used again...just a few years after Versailles, and here they were trusting the British AGAIN...and they were right...conditions for Assyrians in Iraq got much worse after that and took decades to improve..and now comes this war...that should about seal their fate in Iraq.
but that seems to not be a problem for you. It seems only Assyrian Christians and Americans are a problem for you, and the irony is that they are probably the only ones that would allow you the freedoms you have to try and paint them in this twisted negative way.
..there is nothing twisted about it, or negative. You just don't like to have your faith burst...you want things to be as YOU say they are and dislike it when reality intrudes. You're probably embarrassed too that all your faith in Christian America got you Kurdistan. I'd be upset too if I'd believed that America SAVES people...or Britain SAVES people. If you can't save yourselves you're lost.
Your words to me seem duplicitous and twisted,
..that's your privillege.
and to me it seems you hate and have bigotry against Assyrian Christians,
..not at all. Fortunately the majority of our people don't think as you do...but I don't want them or their children giving up on this Heritage...I want them to realize that you are Christian Fundamentalists who for too long have had the spotlight to yourselves..embarrassing the rest of us and forcing many to leave...we want to show that there are reasonable, educated, well read and fair minded Assyrians out there who see the ENTIRE picture...not just their religious sect's myopic viewpoint.
and that makes me not trust when you say you are pointing out all these negative things to help Assyrians
..they aren't negative..the defitnion of "sedition: is not a negative thing..it helps one understand the difference between persecution and prosecution..it is always painful when one must put aside the fables of one's youth...growing up is hard to do..bubbles get burst.
when it sure looks to me like you just want to paint them in a negative way which seems dangerous to me and they are in such a precarious situation, we should only try to help them so that no one in Iraq or else where in the middle east tries to finish the job of their extinction. In my opinion.
...that's what you said before this war...you said we must help them...have we? I'm donating a sculpture to raise money for the AIDS Society...I help in my own way...I don't believe in what they're doing, but I help...I donated a sculpture that sold at auction for $16,000...that money went to help pay medical expenses for an Assyreian girl from Syria who later died from cancer...died because we didn't give money fast enough early enough...negative people don't make sculpture..they don't do it for 30 years...YOU try selling anyting to Assyrians....I'm just not blind is all.
And what the * was that comment you made to that guy about if you are with nonAssyrians you will make the sedition and other points and see how he can't defend himself.
..I meant that it's one thing to have a discussion face to face where there are no moderators to delete posts and another to write like this knowing that it will all be removed...freedom is messy.
I hope that was a harmless comment and you weren't talking about in Iraq amongst the people that you probably could convince of all the negativities and seditions to make the innocent Assyrians the scapegoat.
..seems to me you've done that being in America and praying for it to attack Iraq to 'free' Jesus. It's difficult for fanatics such as yourself to understand simple things...I'm saying that Christins in Iraq had it better than they do now....I should think that's obvious...or do you see any improvement? To make the claim that you are OWED something in Iraq while distorting what happened there can't be good for the Christians left behind.
For 1500 years, that kind of fear has been put into people in regimes like that and it is the 21st century for crying out loud, and you live in freedom, why can't you respect other people's desire for freedom and justice and equality.
...I do. But a handful of Assyrians putting on Levy uniforms because someone else promised them freedom is a trap waiting to happen..that is not the way you will gain any freedom or respect from the majority surrouding you..it's way past the time when we believe these sorts of promises..we counted on foreign Christians to come do for us what we can't do for us..they have used us and betrayed us every time and will in the future..the situation is very very negative and destructive...why are you blaming me for seeing it and saying so? My saying so doesn't MAKE it negative..it IS negative...I would think your desire to whitewash it and look beyond the ruin and misery of today for a "bright sunny future" would have grown a bit old and tattered by now.
Have you lived in Iraq as an open pagan and expressing your thoughts against people in goverment like you do here.
...I think it would be dangerous to express these thoughts in parts of America...but then it was dangerous for women to try to vote in Ameria just a few years ago..it's dangerous now to fly while being Dark in America..there are vast sections of this country where you dare not be Jewish...or Catholic...or Muslim...people are persecuted here all the time for speaking freely.
I would bet not for you are living and posting here becuase you live in a free society where people are allowed to be Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Atheist, and hate propoganda and scare tactics to prevent people from dreaming for freedom and equality are not allowed here, in the country you seem to hate.
...I don't hate anyone...you seem rather filled with the stuff. I like the Truth...and I don't wear blinders...America is America BECAUSE we got away from Christian Europe. I understand America much better than you do if you thought America was coming to save you.
Try being objective and try pointing out the truth on what all peoples there have done and realize that the Assyrian Christians have been perhaps the only ones not oppressing and not being seditous.
...not as a whole...but then they didn't "suffer" as a whole either..like I said, the majority of our people never wanted to leave until Bush came...it is a few who were seditious..but as before, they ruin it for everyone else...make everyone suspect..if America doesn't care which Muslims attacked it and lashes out at any Muslim it wants to..why must Muslims be so careful about whom THEY attack? You see,,,the things you teach come back to get you...America has shown that it's acceptable to kill innocent people...why should anyone else hesitate?
And if those in freedom talk that way, you are smart enough, I hope, to realize that by the way when you are marginalized in a country due to your religion and ehtnicity,
..they were not. There are churches all over Baghdad and Christians were in government and education, medicine, the military and business etc. The Assyrian heritage was proudly put on display and robbed and ruined by a Christian attack...Iraq will NOY call you the modern day Assyrians because of your Christian religion...all the people in Iraq are the descendants of the ancients...not just the Christians..it is for making THAT claim that the loudest of you have "suffered". And it is a ridiculous claim.
especially when they were the ones there for milenia before they were invaded,
.that has happened everywhere...and everyone has gotten over it...Sargon the Great was an invader as well...so was Hammurabi..the very diversity and greatness of that region came abour BECAUSE they were invaded so many times. There are no pure descendants of the ancients and, just as many converted to Christ, that many more converted to Muhammad...what's the big deal?
and you see your language, culture, people becoming extinct under the Sharia like laws imposed on your people,
...this is being made possible through a Christian attack and occupation..it isn't anyting Saddam would have allowed. tell me...when you don't know how to answer me, does that mean I just said somrthing "hatefull" ? Do you HATE not knowing what to say...that is pertinant? They are becomming extinct because this war is killing them, disrupting their lives and driving them out...under Saddam they lived and many many of them prospered...you have been taught by your church that Christians are the only REAL Assyrians..and you believed it and went about spreading the "good word"...naturally you didn't like the outcome.
of course they are going to dream of independence, and you have no right to use that to hurt them and try to despirit the people in the diaspora.
...no such thing. But all your dreams are faith-based..they are not grounded in reality or knowlledge, outside scriptures...you have lost and lost and lost on this path...which is NOT the way to get freedom or benefits...it is your faith that keeps you plodding on in the same road...not reason...faith may be nice enough in church..but it needs more than blind faith to get anywhere else.
And besides, just becuase free men in American and Europe express it on a forum, does not reflect on those who are too scared to even think it in their homeland, and I wish you would stop trying to point that finger for don't you worry that it could be a dangerous and deadly and unjust thing for people afraid to leave their houses as it is.
...I am advocating for their REAL benefit...you are talking of dreams of an Assyria..and THEY are paying the price.
I worry that some things taken out of context of this forum that I don't know to be facts and for all I know could be lies and false accusations or distortions about them
,,,I have said nothing about those left behind, except to commiserate...my comments are aimed at those of you who are here, safe..and calling down airstrikes on them...for their "liberation".
and aren't you afraid it might be used by nefarious people to incite or help religous and national fanatics to justify wiping them out with untrue and unfair accusations. And you must be intelligent enough to realize that?
...Iraqis already know the truth...they know you aren't the "indigenous" people of Iraq BECAUSE of your Christianity...I'm not saying something they don;t know...I'm saying something YOU don;t know. By condeming the Unitd States for this most illegal and criminal war I'm hardly making "enemies' for myself among the majority...on the contrary, my criticism of this notion that America is going to SAVE anyone is in complete accord with reality and historical truth...I'm calling on Christians in Iraq to be the best Iraqi citizens they can...as most of them are. YOU'RE the ones angry at them for not rising up for Jesus. You're the ones who wanted this war and believed in it and promoted and helped pay for it.
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