The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Jumbled Jumblat

Jumbled Jumblat
Posted by pancho (Guest) - Wednesday, February 20 2008, 21:46:31 (CET)
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He tells me it’s no use bringing evidence because I won’t learn from him or accept what he says. But what he says isn’t evidence, it’s his opinion. Of course I won’t “learn” from his opinion, how can I? All that means is that I take his word, his opinion, in place of evidence. Someone has to do more than tell me something to convince me. I can’t help it that he believes what he reads in a book called the bible about a Jew rising from the dead and flying to heaven 2000 years ago. A man who believes such things will indeed believe anything he hears as a child and never think, or dare, to ask for evidence. That might be enough in church at five years of age but will hardly do in university or politics or among adults.

When I write that there is no evidence of his claims that Arabs “wiped us out” or “persecuted us for our religion” or “forcibly converted us to Islam”, I’m not expressing my opinion or articles of my faith…or in the service of any agenda. These are simple statements of fact, not belief, something religious folk deliberately confound. To make it clear that they are I posted evidence from reliable and recognized sources…scholars, even Christian Western ones, whom one would think would have every reason to claim otherwise, yet who all agree that the Arabs were welcomed by the Christians and seen as liberators from Roman and Byzantine Christian oppression. These same scholars make no mention of forced conversions except to say that Christians were guilty of it and not Muslims…they also show that Jews and Christians were treated well by Muslims, far better than Muslims and Jews were ever treated by Christians and that Christians killed more Christians than anyone else. These are not “opinions” but facts, stated by well known Christian historians. When I repeat them I am also not stating opinions, but relaying these facts.

Further research and reading shows that Christians were treated better by Muslims than dissenting Christians were by their fellow Christians…that no one has killed more Christians than Christians and that wherever there was retaliation by Muslims against Christians it was for political acts such as rebellion and treason with not a single incident of any size or scale where Christians were killed JUST because they were Christians. Also I produced evidence, not my opinion, that if anyone killed people simply for their religion or forced them to convert on pain of death it was Christians and not Muslims….then I sat back and waited for Jumblat, or anyone else, to present proof, not opinion, to the contrary. None was offered, except a half-hearted attempt by Jumblat that was more incoherent than enlightening and didn’t hold up anyway…until I was told that there was no use “arguing” with me because I wouldn’t accept what Jumblat had to say. I hadn’t asked for argument, I asked for his evidence and THEN we could argue about it if we wanted to.

Evidence is evidence, it isn’t opinion, or hearsay. Jumblat’s “opinion” about history isn’t evidence, it isn’t even history.

Well, of course I wouldn’t accept what he had to say. I certainly didn’t ask him to accept what I had to say. How could I set myself up as the expert here? Instead I brought him evidence of what people, recognized the world over as knowledgeable on the subject, had to say….not what “I” had to say. And that was what I asked of Jumblat…not HIS understanding of the matter, not even the propaganda of his church but rather what recognized and neutral scholars had to say that backed what he believed.

Someone else posted a title to a book which supposedly backed up Jumblat’s claims…but on further examination it turned out this “book” was of the same order as Aprim’s…that is, it was printed, not published, by one of those print-for-hire shops in England. Even more to the point the author turned out to have one book, legitimately published…which raised the question why was this particular book, reflecting all of Jumblat’s, and his church’s, mythology, not published by the same firm which already knew the author. Surely it would have given the book greater legitimacy. I suspect the author tried to have it published but it was rejected for obvious reasons; because it flew in the face of what experts on the topic know to be true….after that the author had no choice but to go to a print shop where they will print anything you write. No other source was provided, except the one non-book.

It was beside the point to say he, Jumblat, wouldn’t bother posting evidence because I wouldn’t believe HIM…of course I wouldn’t. I made that clear all along and I played fair…because I extended the same courtesy to him of not asking him to believe what “I” had to say either…what I posted wasn’t what “I believed” but what scholars said, so that what he posted, which was ONLY what he believed, did not have the same value at all. One was objective fact and not my opinion, the other was his opinion and not fact. The discussion wasn’t about personal beliefs, but historical facts and data. These weren’t just “opinions” we were expressing so that he could say his were as good as mine. His weren’t relevant simply because they were HIS, regardless of what they were…and we weren’t comparing prejudice…I wasn’t at least. I was looking for, and offered, EVIDENCE, not opinion.

Therefore, even though he tried to make it seem like a simple matter of rival prejudice from which neither would back down, the reality is that I presented FACTS against which he could still only present his opinion…based on nothing more than that HE believed what he had heard in church or family…or read in whatever Zindalite “magazine” or “book” by the likes of Aprim or Rosie, the head-riveter. These are not historical or scholarly sources…they are simply more OPINIONS, bound and covered…paid for and printed.

The challenge still stands as does Jumblat’s, and everyone else’s, inability to produce ONE instance in which their dearest claims; that Islam “murdered” us for our religion and forced us to convert away from Jesus, to back what are merely their OPINIONS. If he means that I still refuse to accept his opinions as facts, he’s correct. That was always the case…it wasn’t something new he’d just realized and therefore threw up his hands in disgust. Why on earth WOULD I accept his opinion…and for that matter why would I expect him to accept mine?

It is, indeed, my opinion, but also a well received fact, that scholars and true historians, especially Christian ones whom one could think would be prejudiced even as Jumblat is, nonetheless play the part of true scholars by stating the facts of a case even if it slanders their “side”, and must, therefore, be speaking truthfully(unless of course they too are being PAID by Jews or somebody). So that if they write that the things Jumblat claims never happened, it sort of does away with any legitimacy I might give to his own personal opinions OR those of his church which, obviously, is VERY interested in presenting its opinions as “fact” and “history”. In my “opinion” the scholars can be trusted, certainly more than Jumblat or his church who only have their “opinions” to offer…but not a shred of hard, cold evidence. In spite of all my “opinions” I presented a body of facts as well. Jumblat, his church too, are equally welcome to their opinions on this matter or any other…but where, in what he claims, are the facts? And it was precisely those facts, and not a repetition of opinions, that I was seeking from him, or anybody else.

I’m still waiting. Let me say again that I will STILL not take Jumblat’s opinion for anything, especially where facts do exist…let him bring any facts from which he derived his opinions…anyone can form contrary opinions about them later. But bring the facts as well. Seems like a simple request and if any facts on his side existed, I’m sure he would have rushed long ago to present them.

There’s still time.



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