The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Christian kid uses morals to kill Gay kid...

Re: Christian kid uses morals to kill Gay kid...
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Wednesday, December 21 2011, 2:12:27 (UTC)
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.....if you stop with the games, then we can concentrate on issues...but if you offer again to switch sides and argue both positions, then you're letting yourself in for what you say you don't want.

>Yes. Exchange of ideas, not beliefs or insults. Try to deal with those ideas without objecting to their sources or demanding the speaker to believe in them. And if you can't, then there is no reason to resort to bullying and insults. It reflects poorly on the quality of your character and your intellectual capacity.


....try the issues...stop lecturing people.....
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> ...as I and everyone else clearly state ours...
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>I could not care less about what you personally believe. To me, you are nothing but words on a screen.
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> ...I assumed you had original thoughts to share

...white noise.
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>We may think that our thoughts are “original” and our own but they are not. Almost all our thoughts have been acquired from someone else (education, reading, peers...) and stored in our memory. But even if we came up with those thoughts on our own, it would still be better to search for and quote someone who has more authority on the subject and who shares with us those thoughts.

...Aquinas???? Are you kidding me? You're going to quote a man who said he flew around Notre Dame Cathedral to me?
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> the law doesn't say anything about a man and a woman or even citizens
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>I already gave you a link about a congress Act that was passed in 1996. It defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman. I do not know what an Act is. Is it a law? Perhaps you could explain. Here's the link: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-104publ199/html/PLAW-104publ199.htm

...an act of congress isn't a law...not until it is signed by the president and reviewed by the Supreme Court...I'll say it again: what you people are trying to do is MAKE A LAW...it hasn't happened yet and never will....because laws are not the will of the people...they have to pass muster with the Supreme Court and no such law has been put on the books....if it has then it's just a feel-good measure until the Supremes weigh in.
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> ...it does say "adults"
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>Citizens, adults... same thing. It is still a loophole. It seems that you did not understand the example I gave you.

...will you stop with the loophole!
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> I am talking AT you and THROUGH you to others
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>Yes. You are talking at me, through me, behind me, above me, below me and around me.
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> the Golden Rule is enough and isn't relative
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>It is. In an Atheist world, everything is. What is immoral to me may be moral to you.

...a civil society isn't concerned with morals....not as a matter of law. The morals which count are the ones also proscribed by law....it may be immoral (to you) to call Jesus an asshole...but it isn't illegal, therefore there are no penalties etc. We are concerned with law, where gay marriage and civil rights are concerned. You keep bringing morals and "relativity" into it so you can propose your pet belief....this is not a question of morality, but of LAW...how many ways can I say that? We don't care that you or anyone else finds gay marriage immoral, neither does the Supreme Court...we are not ruled by a Church but by courts of law..thank god.

How about we kill Bill Gates, get rid of lousy software, and use his money to promote mac and support millions needy people? Some people may deem this to be moral.

...I say it again, this topic has nothing to do with morality but legality...it seems you can't make the separation...you're caught in a Christian-sharia time-warp. To you morality and Law are the same, or should be...just like any Fundamentalist. In the South they thought it immoral for Blacks to marry Whites....but when the issue finally came before the courts, no one was interested in the morality of it, no one cared what white southern crackers thought was moral....we care only for what coincides with our Constitution, for what is LEGAL. I'm sure you're going to repeat all this and we have to go over it again....
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> it is religions which have changed their "commandments" and what they say god expects of them.
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>Example?

...I'm assuming we no longer stone women on their wedding night if they prove not to be virgins. Your Church would like to still be doing it, but our laws stopped it. Just like your Bishops would like to go on moving pedophile priests around parishes so they can fuck more children...but our laws are manking it painful, and expensive, for them to do so...our laws NOT religious morality have finally forced the Bishops to behave LEGALLY...we aren't interested in their morals..that's their business...but the law is the LAW...it is not relative, like church morality.
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> In Christian societies young girls of 12 and 14 were married off...it took civil laws to stop that practice
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>Not in all Christian societies and it was never a prevalent practice. No religion has ever had a 100% effect on society. You will always find outliers.

...what do you mean? It was prevalent in ALL societies...across Europe, in Asia...and in America.
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> show where religion compels people to behave morally...I don;t see it.
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>How do I show? When you genuinely believe, love and fear God, you will abide by His commandments.

...oh fer chrissakes...now you're insulting me, if I could be insulted...but you're toying with me and that pisses me off. I have to BELIEVE to discuss this? I asked you a simple question and you come back with, "you have to believe". Silly.
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> There is not a single "good" which did not exist before Christianity, or the other two...not one.
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>I do not know. We have to know more about those ancient religions in order to judge.

...maybe you do.
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> No society would have endured to the point of any prophet's birth if it did not prohibit murder and theft and rape...did not compel respect for parents and laws....it took no religion to teach people how to behave morally in this regard
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>There has always been religions since the dawn of civilization and that is why societies endured to the point of a prophet's birth.

...not true. And what happened to relativity? What happened to Thor...to Isis....to Isthar...what will happen to Jesus? You religious people change gods every few centuries...talk about fluid beliefs!!! Sure, yolu may always believe in SOME god...but none of you can agree on what his, and it is always a HE, atributes are...you go along changing them as you see fit....you have orthodox, and then heretics...and then fundamentalists...none of you can agree on your god...and you want to lecture atheists???

Religion did not start with Abraham. There has never been an Atheist society. It did take religion to teach people to behave morally.
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> ...but it did take a religion to tell people they must stone to death a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night...or an adulterer...or compel people to cut living tissue from a baby's body...while you can't show what kindnesses religion FORCED on us...I CAN show what barbarities it brought.
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>Yes you can. But if those religions did not explicitly exhort those activities, they would not have happened. You may show what barbarities may have been brought from a certain aspect of a particular religion, but this will neither entirely incriminate that religions (or other religions) nor invalidate the positive effects it has had on other aspects of our lives.

....you can never prove you have done good. I am a good man...my children are good people...we needed no religion to be good...BUT, if I wanted my children to be BAD, I would introduce religion to them...religion which says it's fine and dandy to cut skin from a baby....religions MAKE people do bad things...our humanity is constantly at work to get us to stop doing bad things..and chief among that effort has been pulling the fangs of religion.
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>For example, you often defend Islam on this forum.

;;;I defend the people of Islam...because they are being murdered by Christians who use their religion to murder millions of people....Jews first and now Muslims.


What then is your objection to Islam? You will say it demands a painful surgical operation to be practiced on a child without his prior consent. Then I will ask, what if this practice is forbidden in Islam, what then would be your objection to Islam?

...I object to all religions, period. But, I will leave a religion alone if it doesn't travel miles from its shores to attack and occupy and forcibly convert other people....Islam is as bad as the others EXCEPT it is not VIOLENT...like Christianity is.
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> ...we know the killer is Christian...not only because they don;t mention it, but also because at such a young age he decided to murder a kid just because the kid was Gay...let's see, where could have gotten this hatred from, if not religion?
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>No we don't. We do not know much about his background and his upbringing. Did he often attend Sunday masses? Was he pious? Was he interested in religion at all? What about his parents? There are so many factors that could have influenced his behavior.

...you fill out the questionaire...we know by now that when the media doesn't mention the religion of a criminal it is because he is Christian...I'll bet you anything this kid is a born-again.

Adolescence is a difficult period. We know, however, that those who brought down the twin towers were adults, rational, educated, frequented Friday sermons, attended religious madrasas, memorized and studied the Quran meticulously.

...there is no evidence that the people accused of flying those planes actually did...you are in the habit of believing fantastic tales told to you by authority figures, such as when you die you will live on a cloud...
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> This little murdering Christian has already been forgiven by God
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>No he hasn't.

..of course he has...and how would you know? Who made you god's rep? It says in the bible god forgives 770 times, or 777.....so he could kill another 700 and be forgiven.
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> here are two kids who would have benefited enormously if there had been no god or religion.
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>I say if there had been no religion, not only those two but 770 gays kids would have been killed as well. Hitler was as Atheist as it gets.



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