The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: False Comparison

Re: False Comparison
Posted by AssyrianMuslim (Guest) - Friday, December 28 2007, 5:07:41 (CET)
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pancho wrote:
>..oftentimes with these sorts of apologies Christians frame the discussion in such a way as to steer clear of the real problems from the start. It's a mistake to engage them in arguments which they have to go back and correctly define and re-state the problem to be discussed. There isn't a human bean on earth who would argue with love and peace. It isn't a failure to admire this message from Jesus, who was one of many to believe these things. Neither is there anyone who would disagree with the notion that the message is corrupted and used to attain political/economic goals. But this is not the issue....there's nothing to argue with here. The real issue is how the Church continues to use Jesus to further its own political/economic goals, hand in hand with governments who see a value, not in Jesus, but in the Church built on his corpse.
>>At the heart of the Bible is a moral and ethical call to fight unjust superpowers, whether they are Babylon, Rome, or even America.
>...there may be something to this. But you'd have to add the Hebrew god to this list of superpowers for this god is the greatest mass-murderer and serial killer the world has ever known. Rome, America and certainly Babylon were far more forgiving than yahwe ever was.
> for the New Testament; it reveals no "new" kinder, gentler yahwe. It's the same bloody murderer and the New Testament is nothing more than a close look at only one of the countless innocent children of such a "father"...who hounded his "dear son" to death. There have been numberless sweet and innocent people whose stories, unlike that of Jesus, were never recorded. It's the same bloody god...just a more personal glimpse into one of his victims.
>"Jesus preached a different kind of peace—a peace that surpasses all understanding—and a kingdom not of Caesar but of God."
>..the argument is never about Jesus...or what he preached. It's about what the Churches, all of them, have done to that message. Every church will admit that merely to live as a decent and good Christian isn't enough. A Christian, no matter how exemplary, must...MUST accept that Jesus was murdered "for him or her"...and; must agree to eat his flesh and drink his blood "symbolically".
>..therefore to follow in the footsteps of Jesus(who did not eat human flesh or drink human blood, or seek to gain an advantage at the expense of an innocent victim) will not be enough to be a true Christian. If that's all you do, while refusing to eat and drink symbolic gore and will NOT get into heaven and you won't be considered a real Christian AND, for many centuries, just that refusal, no matter how good and kind and loving and peaceful you were, would get you tortured and murdered by the Church...which represents Jesus on earth. THAT is the problem that needs to be addressed, not the preachinhg of Jesus.
>>The Romans executed Jesus because he preached this Kingdom of God, a kingdom based on peace and justice, over the empire of Rome, which ruled by violence and force.
>...that is a description of how Jesus felt we should treat one another. But from the start the religion, made of his simple beliefs, perverted by the Roman Empire and upheld by the Church, all churches... made the Christian Empire one of the bloodiest and most tyrannical regimes the world has ever seen. The Christian religion made even Rome bloodier and morbidly intoleratnt and nothing in Babylon came close to the horrors perpetuated by the Christian religion or Christian nations in the modern era.
> For Jesus and Paul, Crossan explains, peace cannot be won the Roman way, through military victory, but only through justice and fair and equal treatment of all people.
>...maybe that's true about Jesus but Paul is another matter. In any event; Christians, when their religion is criticized, always shove Jesus in front of them, hoping you'll be forced to admit the obvious truth(which all Muslims accept)that he was a pretty good guy. They change the focus of criticism hoping YOU will feel ashamed of yourself for criticizing "his" church. What you have to remember is that it isn't HIS church at all!
> have to work to keep them hold their feet to the correct fire no matter how they squeal and squirm to shove Jesus in your face. Remember; THEY are the ones abusing and using Jesus first. Those of us criticizing their CHURCHES and religion are trying to RESCUE least symbolically. Just as we are rescuing the name of the Assyrians from our Church skunks.

If you like to read books, I would encourage you to read a book titled "When Jesus Became God, The Struggle to Define Christianity" the author did a great job of painting a picture of the historical background and environement in Judea before Jesus, during his life and after him. The Jesus(pbuh) of the Christian faith or of the Gospels just doesen't fit into the picture. The gospels describe him similar to a westernized hippy who preaches "can't we just all get along" and "pay your taxes to Ceasar" etc. A Messiah talking like that? are they kidding? both the Romans and the Hellenized Jews would love a Messiah like that. A messiah(annointed) is exclusively a Hebrew thing and all of the messiahs were "libirators" peaople who led rebellions against their oppressors etc. The Romans were crucifiying the rebellious and oppressed purely Orthodox Israelites by the thousands. Some how the world of Christendom pretend as if the alleged crucifixion of Jesus(pbuh) was a one time event along with 2 thieves and a large crowd watching. This was going on consistantly and rebelious Jews were crucified by the tens of thousands.

So for messiah to appear suddenly in a time were the pious Jews are being slaughtered for circumcising their children, can't even practice their faith but are being scammed with high taxes and to tell them "pay your taxes to Cesar" wouldn't result in no crucifixion. The Romans and the well treated Hellenized Jews who abolished their way would love such a messiah to talk like this, but this sort of talking would have resulted in getting killed by the oppressed and rebelious Jews who were awaiting the messiah. So, unfortunately, but it is is evident, the Jesus of Christendom just doesen't fit into the historical environment of the time and it is not the historical Jesus whom some of the Christians want to kill everyone for. It just doesent add up. I have washed my hands with trying to find out more about Jesus from the New Testament but I am rather now involved in researching more of the historical Jesus based on information written by others at the time, by other ancient writing outside of the New Testament and by painting a picture of the time period. The more information is obtained, the more does the Jesus of the Islamic theology appear identical to the real and historical prophet who lived about 2000 years ago.

I came across another book the other day which is written by a Christian and I thought there was something interesting. The author stated that "it was a common herecy in the first century and the early centuries of Christianity that Jesus wasn't crucified". Now wether the author thinks that was a "herecy" isn't really important and that is his choice but it is just clear that there was something like that around and that it was common for many early Christian sects to have rejected the "crucifixion". Of course, my view regarding the alleged crucifixion of Jesus(pbuh) is the Islamic claim based on the Quran and the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad(saaws) and that is that Jesus was not "crucified" nor "killed" but it "appeared" so to them. The book of James in the New Testament, which has always been a problem for Christians and the church had debated the book for centuries on wether it should be in the Bible or not, makes no mention of any "death on the cross" for "salvation" but it clearly states that success requires "true believe" and "good works"(righteous). This conflicts with the common view of Christianity that one can only enter the kingdom of heaven by accepting and having faith in the "crucifixion" of the innocent man whom they believe was the Creator who came down as a baby in the womb of a woman, ate food, drank, slept, worked, prayed, worshipped, followed and obeyed the Mosaic law to the very letter and allowed himself to be tortured, himilated and in the end killed for the sins of mankind. Without the above belief there is no "salvation" for anyone they say.

This issue is a big controversy and most have just accepted it blindly and of course conveniently. After all, who wouldn't want to enjoy every corruption and sinful act in this world on the expense of some one else having "payed the price"? who wouldn't want someone else go to the electric chair or go to jail for a crime the innocent person didn't committ? who wouldn't want to pick up the work check while someone else put in all the work? As for those who have more sense, and know that this just don't seem right, they will have to put up with insults, name calling and any other kind of persecution for not accepting this atricle of faith. I did it and more people do so everyday and come to know that there is more to all of this than what the church wants to tell us. The same goes for the so called assyrian nationalists who hide behind the "Assyrian" name and there is nothing "Assyrian" about them. As I was saying before, I had this individual invite me to become a member of this "Assyrian" group which was "purely" "Assyrian" at first and so far I have seen only about 2 people out of about 70 that I learned of who are really about "Assyrianism" and rest were same old fanatics filled with hate and bigotry toward Muslims and any one who differes theologically or politically.


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