|Re: Is Their a Political Solution?|
- Monday, February 12 2007, 8:49:43 (CET)|
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---I figured this is how you would reply. You sound like those old Zowaa people here in Turlock. Funny how…for all that criticizing you do of everyone else you sound just like everyone else. I guess you are “Assyrian” after all.
..oh come on! We taught NESTORIOUS? How is that the world`s historians have all misssed that one but a bunch of boys grown in the church know the truth of it? Honestly!
---Oh poppycock! Show me your sources. What are you, neurotic? You keep doing the same thing in all of your posts. You can’t just state something and state it again and again and expect it to eventually be perceived as “true.”
...what you described first is the Monophysite heresy, not Nestorian..Nestorious concerned himself with denouncing Mariolatry...not the two natures of Christ...that was the Monophysites whose founder was Eutyches...in the fifth century..JESUS I`ve had to learn this crap just to carry on these conversations...it`s a good thing we wren`t VooDoo folowers!!!
---No, apparently you did not read what I quoted. Mar Awdishu was describing the third group of the three “Christological” groups. That is, two natures, two qnume in Christ. That was dubbed the “Nestorian” ideology. Monophysite is the one that professes one nature and one qnuma in Christ and it is what Nestorus spoke against. This is a fact…ask any Jacobite, Copt, or Ethiopian. Here is the full quote from this book:
From this time commenced the division of the Church; some followed Nestorius, whilst others went astray after Cyril, both parties mutually anathematizing each other; thereby causing divisions, slaughter, exile, imprisonment, and persecution of the Fathers, more than ever before, as is fully recorded in the histories of Irenaeus, Bishop of Tyre. After this, tumult and discord went on increasing until the zealous and CHRIST-loving Marcian undertook to convene the great Council of the six hundred and thirty two in the town of Chalcedon, and commanded that both parties should be examined and judged, and that whosoever did not follow the truth and faith as declared by Ecumenical Councils should be expelled from the Church, in order that the Church might be in one accord in all matters of faith. This Council confirmed the confession, that there are two natures in CHRIST each distinct in its attributes, and also two wills, and anathematized all who should speak of mixture, which destroys the two natures. But because in Greek there is no distinction between Qnuma (hypostasis) and person, they confessed but one Qnuma in CHRIST. And when the party of Cyril was not satisfied with the expression “two Natures “, and the party of Nestorius with the expression “one Qnuma” an imperial edict was issued declaring all who did not consent to this doctrine degraded from their orders. Some were made to submit through compulsion; but the remainder maintained their own opinions.
Christianity thus became divided into three confessions; the first confessing One Nature and One Qnuma in CHRIST, which is held by the Copts, Egyptians, and Abyssinians, after the tradition of Cyril their Patriarch; and this is called the Jacobite sect, from a certain Suryaya doctor called Jacob who laboured zealously to spread the doctrines of Cyril among the Suryaye and the Armenians.
The Second sect are those who confess the doctrine of two Natures and one Qnuma in CHRIST, and these are called “Malkaye” (Royalists) because it was imposed forcibly by the king. This is the doctrine which is received by the Romans called Franks, and by the Constantinopolitans who are Greeks and by all the northern peoples such as the Russians, Alani, Circassians, Assai, Georgians and their neighbours. But the Franks differ from the rest of these in maintaining that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and in their use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist. These two sects also accepted the appelation “Mother of God”; but the Jacobites have added to the canon; “Holy God”, etc., “who was crucified for us.”
The Third confession which professes in Christ two Natures, two Qnume, one will one sonship, one authority; is called Nestorian. As to the Easterners, however, because they would not change their true faith, but kept it as they received it from the Apostles, they were unjustly styled “Nestorians”, since Nestorius was not their Patriarch, neither did they understand his language; but when they heard that he taught the doctrine of the two Natures and two Qnume, one will, one Son of God, one CHRIST, and that he confessed the orthodox faith, they bore witness to him, because they themselves held the same faith. Nestorius, then, followed them, and not they him, and that more especially in the matter of the appelation “Mother of CHRIST”. Therefore when called upon to excommunicate him, they refused, maintaining that their excommunication of Nestorius would be equivalent to their excommunication of the Sacred Scriptures and the holy Apostles, from which they received what they professed, and for which we are censured together with Nestorius, as shall appear in the following chapters.
---What “world historians” are you talking about? The catholics and monophysite orthodox do not agree with us but ask any “historian” and they will tell you this is how the three groups are broken down and this is what they believe. If you say otherwise, then you must show proof and sources since YOU are making the claim.
..like I said, the church is no source for serious history...unless you want to discuss the history of the Shroud of Turin maybe?
---This information is not from the church only. Ask any historian and they will tell you this is how the three groups are broken down. Islamic texts and commentaries on Islamic texts say the same thing…just read W. Montgomery Watt and you will see him make occasional references to these groups. This is why no one really bothers talking to you b/c you like to twist things and confuse people. Then after you have run plenty of circles, you claim people are running away from you. Get over yourself. You write some good stuff when you’re cheerleading against this illegal war but besides that you can’t argue for beans.
...we have Always BEEN KNOWN AS nESTORIAN..AND THOSE WHO WEREN`T WERE CONFORMING TO THE bYZANTINE RITE...THEY ARE ALMOST THE SAME THING EXCEPT FOR THE LANGUAGE...SORRY FOR THE CAPS, BUT YOU REALLY TAKE THE CAKE SOMETIMES..NOT ONLY do you people take credit for sliced bread but you take credit for Roman heresies as well!!!
---Slam your keyboard a little harder, please. Keep repeating things…maybe on your 99th repetition people will take your statement to be true. How does it work again…for every source you do not cite, you have to repeat something 50 times to make it true? Yeah, I think that’s how it goes. You’d make a great catholic priest.
...and this all means something? The long and the short of it is that no Christiansa can claim to be Assyrians exclusively...and that`s what you all do, dress it up in "history" all you want to.
---Tell me, when the hell has the hierarchy of the ACOE said if you are not ACOE members, you can’t be Assyrian? Our church is the one that takes pride in our good relations with our Muslim brothers, especially in the early years of Islam. George Lamsa was the one that said we must reconcile with our Muslim brothers. Go read what Mar Shimun Benyamin’s sister, Surma Khanum says about our Muslim brothers. The fact of the matter is that our Church has had its arms open…others are denying their Assyrian-ness. Bet Shimunaya was the one that provided refuge for many Kurds when others Kurds and Turks were out to kill them…just ask Barazani. Mar Dinkha and the two Mar Shimun’s before them were the ones who were saying now that we are in foreign countries, we must live in peace with their governments. In fact, it was Ashur Soro (former bishop Bawai Soro) who worked with Zowaa and who defied that Patriarchal Decree and went on Vatican Radio almost four years ago advocating a war in Iraq and putting our people’s lives at stake. ACOE does not claim exclusivity, Zowaa does and Zowaa has been the reason for Assyrians losing their lives so they can claim “martyrs.”
..thank Ashur...thank you for this discourse...would you kindly give me the history and evolution of the Easter Bunny next...I`m all ears.
---Go cite your stuff and we can talk. And also learn how to interpret people’s writing. How come everyone else that reads what I write doesn’t have any misunderstandings but you do?
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