|Re: an interesting debate...|
- Saturday, November 24 2007, 15:30:22 (CET)|
from 18.104.22.168 - FL-ESR1-208-102-129-185.fuse.net Network - Windows 2000 - Internet Explorer
>..Not the ones we're having...except for Assyrian Muslim, who's brought some fresh air and guts too. And very likely Jumblat and Muncho aren't as stupid as they like to appear...but for some reason they back away from mature discussion in favor of childish pranks...but that serves us well too.
>..I meant a debate I saw on CSPAN between Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens...Dinesh has written "What's Wrong With Christianity"...though he is a devout Catholic...he's probably playing devil's advocate with that title...Hitchens wrote, most recently, "God Is Not Great", which I did read...about three weeks ago. Unfortunately I didn't see the debate from the start but caught it during the question and answer period...all of the questions from the audience were directed at Hitchens because he's an out and out athiest who can't stand Christianity or Islam, as religions..he has very little good to say about Jesus or Muhammad.
>..What fascinated me was an explanation about the morality and ethics of Christianity...now, no one took shots at Islam in this debate...it was all about the bible and Christian beliefs. Dinesh was born in India of Portuguese stock and he's Catholic because the Portuguese brought it with them to India when THEY came looking to steal and rape and murder.
>..He seems to be aware that Christianity took hold in many places to the accompanyment of violence...but he had an interesting take on it; he said he was GLAD Christianity had come..and if the only way his ancestors could have been brought to this "ethical and moral" religion was through the murder of his ancestors, so that he could be born Christian, it was still a good thing. In other words, if Muncho can benefit from the man who rapes his mother...well, that's okay. I found that very interesting...and it just so happens that this plays into exactly what I was talking about; that Christian children are taught to keep their eyes on the goodies they'll get, never mind who has to suffer for it...even Jesus...even their grandparents...even Iraqi children.
>..Dinesh also seems to be saying that the end justifies the means...that since Christianity is a good "end"....the violent "means" used to bring it...make it all okay. A very strange sort of ethics and morality...because it can get you into all sorts of bloody and unpleasant situations.
>This may also hold the key to understanding why Christianity has been so damn bloody. Take Dinesh's position to its logical conclusion..let's say that after Jews and Muslims have all been killed and their children, now sadly made into orphans, are taken in by the Church and raised as good Christians, they will, in time and like Dinesh, be "glad" it happened, because to be a Christian is such a GOOD end...so never mind how you got to be one.
>But what happens next? What happens when Christian turns against Christian...what happens when each "true" form of Christianity decides it must crush heresy...crush other competing sects...as has so often been the bloody case? Doesn't that also become okay? Isn't that just more of what made Dinesh "glad" when Christianity killed his parents...because they were "wrong" and he could now be raised "right"? Can't every Christian sect that comes along take it upon itself, and forgive itself because it is doing a "good" and "glad" thing, and kill those who are "wrong" in order to "save" some other Dinesh? Where will this thing end? With this "gladness" of Dinesh's there is no end in sight....every new or even revived or reborn Christian sect will excuse its own crimes because each believes it's "saving" terribly lost people...and the orphans will be GLAD!?
>There was much more food for thought in this discussion...but let's wait for the children to have their say first.
You know what is more fascinating about this is that I told a Catholic from Mexico that a while back, and out of embarrassment he said that at least it brought the people "closer to God". Never mind that they slaughtered millions of Native Indians in the Americas for simply refusing "conversion" but at least it brought them "nearer to God". This is the saddest excuse that I have ever heard. He further said it brought the survivors of the Aztecs and the Mayas from "idol worsippers" to "believers in the lord Christ" and I'm thinking is "worshipping saints" "mary" "Jesus" "statues" "images" "graves" and everything else not "idolitry" as well? Of course it is but it brought them to "Christianity". At least the indivudual didn't deny the atrocities such as "rape" "murder" "starvation" etc. It is said just reading books and watching movies of how the Spanish Christrian armies were sharing the Native and Carribean women, raping them and killing them by the millions. It has a very dark and bloody history, yet nothing has changed today it is only being done under the name of "secularism" "war on terror" and "freedom". Sadly there many naive people who habe bought into that. And the same Christians who are guilty of slaughtering millions and forcing conversions try to accuse Islam of doing so, but they fail to explain how lands which were for over 800 years or more under Islamic Sharia survived, prospered and lived in peace, while lands that never came under Islamic governments have the highest Muslim populations. I am still waiting for a Christian to open his/her mouth and answer how that was possible. They will never be able to answer because one can't answer to what is not true.
Even today, Islam is growing daily because of people embracing Islam and the strangest thing is that they are doing it from their own research and in most cases from far away from a Muslim community. Although Christianity consists of 34,000 hostile sects, cults and denominations which do not see eye to eye, have their thousands of full time CIA like missionary wokers aroound the globe in 3rd world countries, reports show that Islam is on the rise in those countries as well. I was watching a program on Rawanda and how millions of died in a genocide, and I mean a real "genocide" not like "1933", Islam has grown in that country and more are finding a cure and peace. Rawanada was a country that was 98% Christian mostly Catholic, and Islam has risen there in the past decade and it's continuing. An interesting thing was this American pastor/missionary worker who was there trying to gain converts, but instead his wife ended up embracing Islam instead.
But yeah I know all about this bloody history that the church has managed to do a good job of trying to hide, but in the eyes of honest people, those Christians who accuse Islam of all hose horrible things, become nothing less than hipocrites. They killed millions with their colonizations of Africa, Asia and then want to attack others. Muslims fought in "self defense" against the Arab Pagans who had been persecuting them for many years, but they didn't fight to convert people forcefully to Islam. Such thing is not and will never be approved in Islam or by the Muslims. Muhammad's(pbuh) exact words to the Mekkans after he took Mekka was "go you are free" and they later came on their own and decided to embrace Islam, and withing a century, these same Arabs whom everyone made fun of and did not respect, transformed from a group of "idol worshipping" "violent folk" to a "God fearing" people and the message of Islam had reached 3 continents within such a short period of time.
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