The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> The Apples Vs Oranges

The Apples Vs Oranges
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Wednesday, September 15 2010, 16:42:55 (UTC)
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Tiglath wrote:
>On the eve of WW1 after the European empires had controlled 85% of the globe they turned on each other and the "sick old man of Europe", the Ottoman empire who tried to defend itself from the other European empires who hungrily eyed its colonies.
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>Influenced by the the winds of nationalism that blew through the Middle East forced the Ottomans tried to consolidate their empire through the one religon, culture, language and romanticised history.

...youīre smooshing things together...look, either this gamae has to be played with consistent rules and in an open and free and unbiased manner or itīs a bad game from the start....

..."winds of nationalism" sounds very innocent, alluring and even irressitible...I can see those WINDS blowing through someoneīs hair....someone who just "yearns to be free"...the "winds of opportunity" may blow up a short skirt on a street corner revealing Turkish delights...but if you forcibly partake of those delights you canīt tell the police "what could I do...those WINDS stirred me"! WINDS are no excuse for breaking laws...for murdering innocent Muslims because they wonīt bow to your WINDS....many of us feel WINDS all around us urging us to break laws...but we know that if we do it we bring down the wrath of those whose job it is to keep law and order.

...and it wasnīt WINDS that forced the hand of the Turk...it was a slowly developing INVASION by Christian nations whose tactics included luring Turkish Christians to side with them and rise against their own government and people....honestly, you consistently downplay the crimes of the West, in this matter, while emphaszing and exagerrating what the Turks did...you normally donīt do that but I guess this is too close to home, too tempting to be viewed calmly and factually...itīs okay...none of us is perfect.

Minorities trying to do the same were inevitably forced to rebel and lead insurrections against the Ottomans, which the Ottoman empire responded to with extreme nationalism and genocide.

....minorities were not "forced to rebel"....they were "influenced by those WINDS" remember??? How did we go from innocent-sounding WINDS to, all of sudden, FORCE? In one paragraph?

...plus youīre begging the question when you say the Turks responded with genocide...that has been the crux of this entire discussion and I donīt see where seyfo and the musings of missionaries and Allied officials, all of them either glad to smear the Muslims or their enemies, can be taken as proof of genocide...especially where there has been clear EVIDENCE of tampering and padding by the Christians....as far as I can see there is no hard evidence to support claims of genocide...just the HOPE and the WISH that it MUST have happened...we do the same thing, play the same game when we see that the number of Christians was drastically reduced after the Arab Conquest...right away we are convinced that they KILLED THEM ALL...when there are other explanations, which are backed up by Christian historians no less...

...weīve been asking Bet-Shlimon for years to bring us hard evidence, not church nonsense, that Muslims killed all those Christians FOR THEIR RELIGION...and he hasnīt been able to do it...now I ask you, where is the hard evidence that the Turks murdered all those people for THEIR RELIGION, or for any other reason EXCEPT that they were being attacked by people who made no secret of trying to subvert Turkish citizens, Shabaks or Christian, of forming a fifth column and attacking from within? We have solid evidence that the Christians succeeded in so luring Turkish citizens...for instance: just what was Agha Poutrous decorated for by the French? Why was he called the "Lion of Assyria" by them and taken to France and given a chateua and funds to live out his life? What service had he performed for the nation attacking his own lawful, though perhaps personally detestible, government?

...where are the mass graves in Turkey...where are the ovens that dispensed of the "millions" of Christians you claim were killed? In the killing fields of Cambodia and elsewhere skulls and bones littered the countryside like confetti after a parade for years....where are all those millions in Turkey buried...or where were their bones discovered if they were NOT incinerated?
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>And following the UN definition, which I know you'll dispute, I think we have now clearly established that the Young Turks did in fact commit genocide during WW1 on the Assyrians, Armenians and Greeks who rebelled.

...no way...no way in hell. You have not "clearly"established genocide or much else except that in this one matter, emotional zeal got the better of your normally sound and fair judgement. You Christians have convinced yourselves that there was genocide...but not anyone else....All Christians know damn well there was a Holocaust....but not even all Christians..and hardly any REAL historians agree that there was a genocide by the Turks...besides which youīre picking a definition pleasing to yourself, and the UN, which is owned and operated by the leading Christian powers....by a bigger Seyfo, if you will. Nothing has been "proven" except that you need a genocide as badly as Aprim needs martyrs...and arenīt they really the same thing?

...you might have been able to make this claim had you been able to respond, with reason and counter argument, to every point raised....I know you are busy, so are we all....the notion that some of us have nothing better to do so we can afford to bang away all day is erroneous....but, if this is an important topic, and I believe it is one of the most important because Christians have begun on their second government SPONSORED genocide which could easily turn into a second Holocaust, of Muslims this time...if this topic is important then every nook and cranny of it needs careful thought and at least SOME investigation....and anyone who brings Christain propaganda as fact is not taking this seriously...as Rashad said, "where are the historians"...not the taxi drivers, engineers and sculptors...where are the historians on this? Christians have cleverly put forward "historians" who back their claims up...but only a casual glance will reveal these historians to be church stooges, apologists who may have minor degrees...by historians I mean people with advanced degrees who are also legitimately published...there were some from long long ago, like Arnold Toynbee who backed every claim he heard about a Turkish genocide...but that was war hysteria, especially after the Holocaust when Christians first realized they stood alone as the worldīs worst butchers of the innocent..it was then that the first noises were made that "they did it TOO"!
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>This genocide was however not a Holocaust. And nothing can compare to the sytematic state sponsored production line instituted by the Nazi Third Empire.

...this "genocide" was not a genocide at all....you canīt simply declare vistory and celebrate...who do you think you are, George Bush?

,>
>But the fact remains that minorities such as the Chaldeans, Syriacs, Yezidis and Shabaks who didn't rebel were also victims of pogroms and massacres, but not to the extent of the rebels as they were more easily Turkified and homogenised into the new Turkey.

...I see you left out "Assyrians" this time....did you remember Agha Poutrous? But, he was Chaldean...so Chaldeans, and by definition as well as nonsense, Syriacs DID rebel. Youīre splitting hairs again looking for a bald spot...America wasnīt attacked by Japanese-Americans..it was attacked by the Japanese,but they punished their own citizens of Japanese ancestry just on suspicion....the Turks were being attacked by Christians who had entered their country previously with the stated intention of using Christans to fight against Islam and then the government too, and these Christians, unlike the Japanese-Americans, took arms and pay and orders to attack their own government and people....while under attack nations OVER REACT...such as the United States which attacked Iraq when not a single Iraqi was any part of 9/11...it DOES happen in time of war...and you STILL refuse to address the issue of how it was that the Turks had an exemplary record for religious tolerance, especially compared to Western Christianity, for hundreds of years and "all of a sudden " turned on Shabaks etc. Why do you avoid this one point like the plague?
>
>I know you'll dispute my 1920 Syriac and Chaldean church sources from seyfocenter so I ask you to supply sources that show that the Chaldeans, Syriacs, Yezidis, and Shabaks before WW1 and the Kurds after WW1 were not victims of Turkish massacres and pogroms at the very least.

...no no no...it doesnīt work that way Tiglath....YOU and Christians before you and surrounding you have brought the charge of genocide against the Turks(it wasnīt even around when these things allegedly happened)....it is not THEIR responsibility to prove their innocence but their accusers to prove their guilt.

...I canīt accuse you of rape and then ask you to prove you DIDNīT do it. The burden of proof is always on the accuser, not the accused...a person accused has the legal right to sit silently in court, reading a comic book, if he chooses while the prosecution struggles to prove its case...and if they canīt, without a word of testimony from the defendant, he must be found innocent, of that specific charge.

..the burden is on you to prove there was gencoide...and for evidence all you have brought us are dubious first-hand accounts which no one could verify, then or now, plus other hearsay from highly prejudiced sources...against this we have real historians, even Christian historians, we have evidence of tampering and lying by Christian officials, both church and diplomatic...and we have Turkish traditions and character references plus REASON...such as: at the time of these events they were not thought of as genocide...that concept only became a reality after the second world war brought on by Christians, again....only then, after what THEY had done did this word come into existence...and to go back in history and smear the Turks with something no one at THAT time even thought of, is unfair and inaccurate, to say the least, and illegal too, if we were in a court of law. Plus the weird notion that since there were dead and murdered Christians (setting aside all the innocent murdered Turks at Christian hands) there "must have been a genocide". None of this is evidence, except of one thing...that in matters such as anything dealing with this supposed identity of ours, even the most intelligent people, in every other facet in life, can go flabby in the head over this suject.

...like my much esteemed and now much-lamented doctor friend, highly educated and cultured with a library in his own home who shocked the hell out of me one day when he said, and I quote, "everyone knows Dr Joseph is a CIA stooge who was given his degree and set up as a professor of history to disrupt Assyrian unity because America wanted the Arabs to unite and assyrian claims and unity was a threat to that." I almost choked on his head. How, I marvelled, could an otherwise bright and logical and sane person, a credit to the human race, ever fall so far into unwisdom and downright stupidity? the answer was of course because he had uncritically accepted anything that sounded pleasing, since childhood, in this matter of an assyrian identity and all the rubbish that goes with it...truly this stuff can make you stupid, or at least mush-headed.

...You proved nothing except how dear to you is the notion that the Turks must have committed genocide...you believe it from the start and the only "facts" that impress you are those which verify your belief...you arenīt looking for the truth of the matter but to convict...otherwise you, especially, would know better than to rely on seyfo, and to tell me that WE have to prove the Turks DIDNīT commit gencoide, when under other cirsumstances you would be the first to howl at such a notion....that the accused must clear himself....come, come...letīs maintain some dignity here.

But you have shown exemplary patience and civility in a dispute I know must affect you deeply....there is always hope when people can disagree, vehemently even, but with mutual respect and admiration....you remain our dear and valued Tiglath...no matter how much you believe in something that never happened...or at the least has not been proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt", or even beyond a "reasonable doubt" (which is the standard in all capital cases, as this one would be if ever brought to trial),by those who BRING the charge, and such a serious one at that.

This no laughing matter or to be taken lightly because the Christians are on the warpath again...again they begin by spreading lies and hatred and indulging their ages-old bigotry...again they play with ridiculous stereotypes, again laws are passed affecting only mebers of one religion, again the holy books of one religion are being burned and the ground pulled from under their places of worship, again people are being attacked for what they are rather than for anything theyīve done... again a few disagreebale or criminals from one religious group are being presented as typical of the entire group...again a religion is being blamed for turning its believers into detested and dangerous beings, enemies of civilization and "all we hold dear", again we see book-burnings and pressure brought against those who dare stand up and tell the truth, with teachers and students being expelled from school and losing their jobs for "defending our enemy", again a religious group virtually powerless in terms of real weapons of ANY kind, is being presented as a threat to world peace, "our way of life" etc. And again we see the clandestine rise of a private mercenary army in our very midst, paid for by our own government with our taxes, an army that in the end will be used by government against its own people, but first against the "enemy within" as was the Gestapo and SS...itīs all happening again less than a hundred years after the last Holocaust...and again every effort is being made to smear a religious group, accuse it of the most vile crimes in order to win the sympathy and hatred of Christians...so they will have no qualmns when finally they move against that group....Iīm not going to sit by while I see it play out all over again, if for no other reason this will ruin my childrenīs future and now our planet too... though this is just the beginning and may look to be harmless enough, for now.

Your charge against Muslims is a serious, and potentially dangerous one, for the entire world...unintentionally you are adding fuel to the rising flames that will again, like the last time, consume us all in the end and many many more than we are supposedly lamenting over. It sounds innocent enough to say, "just let them apologize and admit their guilt and we can move on" Maybe...maybe YOU will move on...but others wonīt...others are waiting for one more "proof" that Islam and Muslims deserve whatever we have in store for them...it is like asking the Jews in 1939 to "just admit" that they USED to poison wells, and drain blood from Christian children to use in their Passover...."just admit it, ask forgiveness and we can all move on"...to Auschwitz!

Not this time fella...not this time am I going to sit on my hands...I wonīt fight with guns but with truth...at least with better questions...like the ones that have been posed to you and many of which you have ignored...so far.

Not this time. Iīm not going to ask Muslims to prove they are innocent...thatīs what Nazis did to Jews in their courts of law....Iīm going to ask the Christians who accuse them to prove them guilty...and you havenīt even come close...not you and not Seyfo and not Aprim and not Bet-Shlimon...see what kind of company you force yourself to keep when you go gooey and slipshod on us?



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