The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> aresponse from aul Eshu at my facebook page

aresponse from aul Eshu at my facebook page
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Friday, January 16 2015, 1:28:14 (UTC)
from *** - *** Mexico - Windows NT - Mozilla
Website:
Website title:

I decided to answer him here...


Firstly you contradicted yourself in your last comment very much without you even knowing...I mean do you even read what you right to begin with?

...this is such a familiar script....we've seen it all before...why don't make some factual statements and stop trying to make me cry?

"Unlike you i did give my opinions, I gave FACTS as stated by a recognized expert in this field..." then you said "Dr. Joseph is not an expert in ancient history...he knows that...etc"

So firstly you said he's an expert in this field and then you say he's not an expert in ancient history???

...do YOU read? I said, this entire subject of the existence of modern Assyrians is a recent phenomenon...before the excavations in the 19th century none of us called ourselves Assyrians..or even thought we were...We "appeared" in the modern era, not in ancient Assyria...Dr Joseph is an expert in THIS field, that is when we appear...not before.


So wait a minute...if he's not an expert in ancient history then how can he possibly know the roots of modern day Assyrians?

...modern day Assyrians have no roots dating back 3000 years...just because you say they do doesn't make it so...you have to give EVIDENCE, else it's just your opinion and the opinion of those who agree with you...this is NOT scholarship.

You just admitted that he doesn't have the credentials then how can he make such conclusions and how can he trace back the roots of modern Assyrians to know whether if they're the discendants of the Ancient or not?

...no one can do such a thing...not you and not anyone else. What he does is show when and where and why we started thinking of ourselves as Assyrians.

You seeking these informations from someone who's "an expert in moder MidEast" (as you described him) and not going to an expert of ancient near east studies is like someone with a brain tumor seeking a medical surgery from a nurse rather than going to a neurologist.

...bad analogy, like most...I'll say it again...we "Assyrians" only appeared on the scene in the 19th Century...we never called ourselves Assyrians before that, only Nestorians and Suyraye.
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 6:18pm
Plus let's assume that he's an expert in ancient near east (which he isn't of course) then would you really base your entire conclusion upon one single person? That's the soul definition of the word "biased"...to seek one source and refute all other ones without even referring to them.

...this is not a field with much interest...many people study ancient Assyrians but no serious scholar, in THIS field, bothers about our claims...Joseph did, he decided to actually study HISTORY, not the way we make it up or cut and paste it, but as a DISCIPLINE....with mentors and experts in the field over his shoulder.
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 6:23pm
"Till then we were content to be known as Nestorians or "Suraye" but never atouraye"

Firstly even a child with no education at all knows that "Nestorian" is a religious designation & not an ethno-national one.

...yes, and so is Assyrian, because you HAVE to be Christian to be Assyrian...whatever it is it is what we called ourselves...even our church was the "NESTORIAN Church of the East", till 1976 AD, when we dropped the Nestorian and added Assyrian...of course we're just a religious sect...it is your fantasy that we are an ethnic group...we are not, at least not an Assyrian one.

It's just that people back in those days referred to themselves by their faith..what church they follow..and not by their ethnicity or nationality. Just as in pre-renaissance Europe..people identified themselves by their religion and NOT nationality. .they were either catholics or protestant or calvinists or Presbyterian. The Roman Catholic Church ruled over everything they were basically the government. The popes were richer and more powerful than all kings and queens of Europe. It was not until after the European renaissance that people began identifying themselves by their nationalities and not by religion.

...and we never did until Layard and others dug up the remains...we NEVER called ourselves Assyrians or identified with them in any way...we knew about them like everyone else did, from the Bible....we knew nothing of the language or people or customs of the Assyrians till the Europeans taught US. Your argument is weak...we never referred to ourselves as Assyrians because we didn't know we were...and of course, we're not...it's just that when WW I ended and President Wilson said all ethnic minorities had a right to nationhood we realized we could not ask for a nation that was all Christian...so we invented a "national identity" for ourselves...to fool people...my grandfather Hakim Baba Parhad worked with Dr Freydoun Atouraya drafting such a document...no one who is serious takes it seriously.

Well the same thing goes for the middle east.
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 6:32pm
The entire book of your buddy there (who isn't even an expert in ancient near east studies) was that the ancient Assyrians were melted into Arameans because their language is Aramaic and not Akkadian.

...exactly...and he gives the evidence for it...in fact WE say the same thing. Has your mother or father NEVER said to you, "forget your language and you forget who you are"? Well, that is exactly what happened...the ancient Assyrians forgot their language and soon their history and culture. The irony of course is that we forgot "our" language long long ago and, as our parents never cease reminding is, we FORGOT...if we ever knew.....the ancient Assyrians went the way of the ancient Babylonians, Sumerians, Hittites etc. No, they were not "ALL wiped out"...of course not...they just were conquered and soon adopted the ways of their conquerors.,,.,.as people have always done...the Persians were wiser when the Arabs conquered them...they adopted Islam, even the Arabic alphabet BUT, they continued to write their own language, using the Arabic script...in that way they kept their culture and history.

If we want to use this argument then we should apply that to other nations...in this case the modern day Egyptians have no relations to the ancient Egyptians

...and they don't.

only because they speak Arabic (although their physical shape is very distinguishable from the Arabs of Arabia). The Sudanis are not the descendants of the ancient Ethiopians only because they no longer speak Ethiopian languages and they speak Arabic (although they're black and they live in Africa)?

...Egypt and Assyria/Babylonia were crossroads...many many peoples came and went and mixed...there is no pure or true Assyrians or Egyptians or Greeks, or English left anywhere.

Also the modern day Italians have no relations to the ancient Romans because they speak Italian and they don't speak the Latin language?

...that's right...they have no meaningful relation at all. Even though they may be born in Rome...they are NOT "ROMANS".

The Mexicans and Brazilians and south and central Americans have no relationships to the Aztec and Andes races and they're all Spairads and Portuguese because that's their spoken languages today?

...now you're moving into the modern era, so yes, some peoples have some relations to their ancestors...but no one has any bloodline extending back 3000 years...no one....imagine, if you will, a modern-day Greek saying he was a direct descendant of Socrates and his ancestors lived where the Parthenon is today...and he wants it back...he'd be locked away. Even if he spoke ancient Greek it would mean nothing...anyone can learn a language. A German couple may move to Beijing to have their baby...that baby would NOT be Chinese for being born there, even if he learned to speak and eat and dress Chinese, it wouldn't make him Chinese...and being born in what USED to be Assyria does not make you an ethnic Assyrian of any kind.
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 6:33pm
Jesus Christ and the Jews in his days spoke Aramaic...does that mean they were Hebrew Jews? Do you see how silly his claims are?

...lots of people spoke Aramaic...it was the "lengua Franca" of its day...that means lots of ethnic peoples spoke it...just as many Africans today speak French...doesn't make them ethnically French.
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 6:36pm
they weren't Hebrew Jews**
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 6:58pm
Speaking about sources...I've never even heard of this man Aprim of yours.

...you're not missing anything.

..and no my sources aren't from Wikipedia they never were...have you heard of Dr. Simo Parpola an archeologist and a professor of Ancient near East studies..he wrote several articles and books about the continuation of the Assyrian nation.

...yes I have heard of him, seen him, talked with him...again I say he is NOT an expert in the field of modern MidEast history...his area of expertise is ancient Assyria....that he writes ditzy articles on a topic he knows nothing of is his problem, not mine. Dr Joseph would never think of writing on a topic outside his professional range...it's a pity Parpola hasn't this good sense. Parpola, like many others, takes it as a given that there ARE Modern day Assyrians...Dr Joseph doesn't...Joseph decided to actually study this field and see what he could see...his book is filled, not with his opinions, as Parpola's papers are, but with actual historical sources...and footnotes and an extensive bibliography.

..and NO he's not a Nestorian he's from Finland. Have you heard of Dr. Racho Donef? He's Greek from Turkey he's a professor of Ancient near East studies....he wrote a book called " Assyrians Post-Nineveh: Identity, Fragmentation, Conflict and Survival (672 BC - 1920): A Study of Assyrogenous Communities"

...yes I heard of him...I want to know who published his book and what of college he teaches at...a lot of these guys are Christian fundamentalists who have their own reasons for promoting the idea of the existence of modern Assyrians...and Israel.
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 6:59pm
I encourage you to buy his books and read it.
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 7:03pm
Have you heard of Dr. Hurmiz Abuna? He was an archeologist and historian of ancient near east studies and also of Syriac Christianity and he was an Assyrian of Chaldean catholic faith...he wrote many many many books about ancient and modern Assyrians i encourage you to read his writings and his books.

...you tell me who his publishers are...and then tell what university library carries his books....then we'll see.
Eshu Paul
Jan 14th, 7:07pm
When you respond back to me then I'll respond back with actual facts to you. ..right now I felt I've said so much so I'll wait for your respnse



---------------------


The full topic:



***



Powered by RedKernel V.S. Forum 1.2.b9