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=> okay...have at you

okay...have at you
Posted by parhad (Guest) - Friday, December 12 2003, 10:35:50 (EST)
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Andy Younan wrote:
>Farid,
>
>>+++I'm nopt asking you about all history...it's very simple and it is the central point of your own friggin religion and of your own self as well so I should think you'd more than Blahs to say about it. Skip all the choirboy bullshit...your religion tells you to eat the body and drink the blood of a dead god made into a man so he could be killed and really feel the pain. And because pf that murder...insisted on by his own father...you will derive an unheard of benefit...get to live forever on a cloud somewhere.
>
>I believe that the same God who created the universe and became man, who died on a cross and rose from the dead, makes himself present to the world continuously in the most humble way imaginable - in the form of bread and wine.

***I understand all that. A cannibal is as good at explaining his beliefs too. What I want to know is if you suspect there´´s some reason why it´´s necessary to trun things into flesh and blood and then eat them. Can´´t your Jesus be seen and felt in a flower? Or would you guys then go rip up flower beds and eat those too?

The Eucharist IS the re-presentation of that same sacrifice in which Christ died for the sins of the world out of love.

***Christ didn´´t do that. It was the farthest thing from his mind imaginable. Christ said some simple amd simpleminded things that had been said for hundreds of years before him all over the world. He said them in the midst of the Roman Empire and got killed for it. He didn´´t "sacrifice" anything. That´´s your chruch´´s twadle so you can hang the guilt for it on every living child whose one end, at least, you can legally screw.


By eating his body and drinking his blood, I live in him and he in me, and remember what he did so I can try and do the same - which is the whole point of the faith. To live in Christ.


***Cannibals feel as you do. They too consume the felsh and organs and dripping blood of people who´´s virtures they would aspire to...they too believe a man´´s soul in his guts and chow down in order to "improve" the world and themselves...they too believe "he lives in me and I in him and the next guy who´´ll eat me" You don´´t see anything odd bout this, neither does the Cannibal priest.

You do not believe that Christ is God. I do.


***A Hottentot couldn´´t have said it better about Mugwump...his god.

That makes all the difference in the world. If he were only a man, then you'd be absolutely right - the Mass would be a horrible ritual recalling murder and celebrating cannibalism.

***But he was MADE into flesh...remember? Where{s the pain and agony factor for you to weep all over if he was a god? How do you pierce the flesh of a god? He was turned into a man for the occasion of his murder...just to make sure he´´d FEEL YOUR PAIN.


But I don't believe that, and the Church never has, and if you want to talk about the faith of the Church, you have to look at it as a whole.


***If you looked at the church as a "hole"...even you´´d be ashamed of yourself. Instead you pick and choose what suits you and hold your nose at the rest.

The Creator of the universe takes on the form of a small wafer and a glass of wine. I can't explain the Eucharist any better than that. Mock away.

***How can I out-mock that? You did it for me. The creator of the universe becomes an itty bitty cookie??? You people are beyond satire.
>
>>If a friend of your's named Mary bought you some flowers for your Urination but did it with money she made selling her body...would you accept the gift and say..."well what I am I supposed to do, poor dear...she worked so HARD for that money".
>
>If that happened I'd make sure she stopped selling her body. I don't get the analogy.

***Would you have refused to accxept the gift that came from murder? Would you have said..."can you get me a box of chocolates or Paradise some other way? In other words...have you moral compass at all where you´´re personal benefit is at stake? Would you pass up eternity to do the right thing...would you refuse the gift of heaven at such a price?
>
>>If someone kills someone else and brings you his shoes as gift...do you acept this kind of gift? Well why not...you sling Christ's body up and pray in front of it grateful for the gift that could have come your way in no other way bit through his murder. Even the secular arm relaizes that's a crime and you can't get off the hook by saying "But he WANTED to die...HONESTLY".
>
>That's what the Church believes, Farid. I'm not sure what you think you're criticizing here...Christianity or your own understanding of it. Are you or are you not saying that "the Christian faith leads to immorality?" Don't you think you should know what "the Christian faith" is before telling us all what it leads to?

***You´´re the one not paying attention. It doesn´´t matter WHAT filth is committed in it´´s name..as long as you benefit. That´´s what your church teaches you. Name one atrocity that was put down by reference to this church of yours..and then tewll me one atrocity it didn´´t commit.
>
>>Jesus didn't scarifice a goddamn thing...he spoke out in ways his conscience told him to...like lots of people did before and since..people who KNEW damn well the fire was going to hurt...that it wasn't a temporary thing after which they'd rise up and get cleaned off and go rule the universe...and they all managed to go to their deaths for their beliefs...not a one of them "sacrificed" anything...they LIVED UP TO what they believed even at that awful price. Let's see you utter a peep about the murder of your own people by these Christians of yours.
>
>Jesus was executed because he claimed to be God, and you're right, execution was the plain old legal Roman penalty for that. By all accounts Christ could've easily avoided his death, but he didn't. He chose it - he insisted on it when everyone tried to turn him away. It was his act of choosing to die for the world, not the act of his killers, that saved the world.

***That´´s bullshit...but it´´s Jew bullshit so it´´s become yours as well. Jesus didn´´t say he was god. He said we were all children of god...nothing new. He upset the establishment of his own church...as you wouldn´´t dare to do...and scared them because the Romans were every ready to impose their power on the Jews even more if they couldn´´t keep the peace themselves. Jesus criticized the established powers that be...something you wouldn{t do in a million years cause you got to get Urinated and go save the world. He knew what the price was for doing that...so have countless of other people who went to their deaths without making a fuss about and they didn´´t have the security of knowing it was all a joke, that they´´d bounce right back and go live in Beverly Hills forever. Which takes more courage?
>
>>Jesus broke a law...plain and simple and he paid the price millions of criminals...including those of Conscience, have paid...and they had no hope of being whisked to heaven...they all knew better. You want to paint it in these colors because it ties children in knots to think this poor fellow was led to slaughter FOR THEM....when he had no such notion at all.
>
>Not what the Church believes...we're still talking about the Christian faith, right?

***Yes...but more about how an otherwise decent person could not only become so corrupted by Jew nonsense, but stroke himself all over cause now he´´s gonna spread more of this manure? We´´re talkjing about what´´s left of your soul and trying to save it before you piss it all away.
>
>>Yes I make mistakes and I have lousy ideas...but I went out and found them and I tested them and I live by them and suffer the consequences. You'll say you do the same and you're partially correct...but these ideas of yours are old and musty and they are KILLING PEOPLE...those very ideas of yours...not some other ones.
>
>You're not talking about any idea of mine.

***I heard them all...as old as the sheepshit hills of Jerusalem. It´´s just possible you aren´´t capable of understanding, or worthy of, your Heritage...just possible.
>
>>You are part of an institution and as nice and sweet a guy as you may be personally...at some point maturity dictates that you look around and see what you're associated with...and DON'T tell me you're going to "work from within".
>>
>>You're religion...which demanded Jesus be killed for the benefits to flow, has become blood-crazy...as it's been many times in the past...and it's up to people who are what Jesus was in his day...NOT "working for change" within the Sanhedrin which you belong to...take it down.
>
>I wouldn't dream of it. What the Church needs - what the whole world needs - is MORE Christianity and not less...it needs to be MORE like Christ.

***And die and get sacrificed? You want MORE death and huuman sacrifie and blood and guts for dinner? Remember...you said kindness and decency were around long before Jesus...so we need more of >THOSE...Jesus brought human sacrifice home for dinner..that´´s all.
>
>>++++These are the games you play. You preach this crap to 100 kids and when 65 of them take it to its logical conclusion and start killing people...you know "sacrificing" them...you pull back in horror...
>
>How is it the logical conclusion again? I can see the bumper stickers now:
>
>"Jesus died for me...and so can YOU!"

***You´´re getting close...but then again...what about Heaven?...so never mind. Just like you´´ll take all the benefits that came from killing 500,000 Iraqi children...though you will "agonize" over it as you fill up at the pump so you can go out and show the world hopw to live as Jesus did. This ISN´´T arrogance?
>
>"Christianity...so you can be just like the Romans!"
>
>>+++Give it a break. These sweet humble people stood by, like you...while 500,000 children were killed by the wrong kind of Christians...the ones that failed your class. No one said you could have stopped it...any more than Jesus stopped the Romans...but you could TRY!
>
>When did Jesus try to "stop the Romans?" And from what?

****Well now...that´´s interesting. You´´re right..he never once spoke out against slavery and said the poor would always be with us...give Caesar what he asks for, even if it´´s your wife and children...and do exactly what?

***Why was he preaching at all then?
>
>>+++Christianity is the one that starts and ends in murder. The rest had prophets and most of them died a natural death...no one celebrates murder the way you people do...just because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside doesn't mean it's anything but unhealthy and unsettling.
>
>Christianity starts and ends in a God of love in whose image we were created.

***That´´s blasphemy if I ever heard it. God was made in YOUR image...anything other than that is scarilege. Your god isn´´t a god of love at all..that´´s your adverty for it...what are you gonna do, tell the truth? That your god has condoned murder from the day he was born, even up to and including his own sons. He pulled back with Ishmael and what´´s-his-name but got his wish finally with Jesus. You call that love?
>
>The core of your problem – and it is YOUR problem, my friend – is that you misplace the source of all these graces. You seem to think that it was in the act of the Romans killing Christ that we’re now able to get into heaven.

***I hate to break it to you but you aren´´t going to a heaven anywhere. There is no cloud for you to dance around on forever...there´´s no big Jew waiting for you up there. You are god-crazy, that´´s all.

Perfectly wrong. It was in the act of Christ’s will which chose to die out of love that any of this is possible…and THAT’S what this is all about: choosing to love at any and all costs.

****Loving is fine and good...happens on earth all the timne. That´´s not what happened, I don´´t care how many Jews tell you so...or how many corporate imperial Romans. You and millions of others are afraid of the dark...that´´s all this has been about. So afraid you´´ll kill anyone who isn´´t.
>
>Your tv pal,

***Switch channels.
>
>Andy



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