The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum

=> Re: doublespeak spoken here

Re: doublespeak spoken here
Posted by Shushan (Guest) - Tuesday, September 7 2004, 18:31:01 (CEST)
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everytime i write a long reply, i get dumped out... let me try again...umpf... dumped out again.. this time i saved it atleast.. let me try again...

Shushan wrote:
>farid wrote:
>Assyrian Muslims..having refused to lay down and die...like when did they ever...are making the United States "rethink" elections in Iraq...it`s no victory..not in the usual sense...shattering Iraqi society and leaving it in ruins is the Bush strategy and it`s working too well...our peope are playing their parts..unfortunately...it was in the script..at least they`re behaving true to form...
>
>I have a few questions for you.
>
>We all know that Sadam's regime was brutal and unfair and at times evil to its people with gassing of the kurds and arabization policies.
farid wrote:
...We do? Who told us so? Do we know what Rios Mont did? Do we know what Pinochet did? Do we fully understand the implications of the Vietnam War? Now that we know another was used to get us to kill a nation that was ptactically ALL children as their parents had been in continuous war for 40 years...first against the Chineses and then the French...do we fully understand what murdering over three million innocent men, women and children means? Do we understand that we dropped atom bombs on the CHILDREN and mothers of the enemy soldiers our soldiers were facing...do we know the history of oppression of Blacks in the South...the lynchings and beatings ...do we know that no one used any of this as an excuse to make war on us..to call us Evil and worthy of extermination...do we admit that Saddam was one many goons the United States supports and uses around the world to create chaos and havoc so we can go on enjoying our envious lifestyle?

*** yes you put me to shame on that... yes my country did all those horrible things including putting Sadam in power. And I do no think we should have invaded Iraq and I admit that from what I read I think Sadam was a bad man... but you are right all countries, including my own have had bad men that had slaves and all the other things you mentioned, and it was horrendous that we dropped atomic bombs on anyone let alone children and mothers, and not one but two... i agree... but I am not to blame for any of that no more than an Iraqi is to blame for anything atrocious Sadam did to his own people. I agree if the media is right and he was evil to his own people, that still does not give us the right to invade if the WMDs were fictional especially as you mentioned we have our own WMDs like atomic weapons... but the old might is right like our ancestors did too... and you are right that is what causes the chaos in the world and I am sorry if my country caused any of that and I can only hope things get better. okay so that one is settled.

farid wrote:
...Saddam was faced with what the United States faces now, though they couldn`t be happier...he had a country with people in it pullling in all directions...

*** that was my thouhgt when all the insurgencies broke out that maybe Sadam had to be brutal to keep chaos in check and I admit you are right that we have done a lot of harm with the thousands that have been killed and how of course that would cause their family and friends and neighbors to want america out of there even if they really need to stay until they can clean up their mess and bring back peace, order, infrastructure and democractic elections and stability. We screwed up, Bush screwed up, but if he pulled out tomorrow as the insurgents want, won't that be worse and then won't he be responsible for more death and destruction from this chaose. I was not saying he was right but just that thisgn are screwed up and isn't democracy the only solution at this point?? you tell me since i am not political and no nothing of iraq... that is why i was asking.

farid wrote:
>People very often used and lied to and then dumped by the United States...he tried to forge one nation to meet the constant meddling by the UNITED States...and GREAT Britian who`d been playing factions off within his country and others in the MidEast seince oil was first dicovered there...It was a near impossible thing to do..especially with the United States looking over his shoulder. Life was very good the last years of Saddam`s reign before the United States targetted him...Iraq had money to spare, it`s own not anyone else`s...health care and education were amonmg the best, better than in America...prosperity and the chance of peace, imposed as it is anywhere else would have meant growth of a more confident and open society in time...after all they didn`t have the Parliamnetary, Enlightenment tradition we had to begin with..it was a longer, tougher haul for them..but they were on their way...the United States is a Corporation...and it doesn`t like competition any more than Bill Gates does.

*** I am sorry but I guess I have been inundated with both US media and Assyrians on other forums who say that life was not good for Iraqis under Sadam, espcially christians... if that is not true then I am sorry for misjudging but the deed is done and he is no longer the leader... if the US does not clean up the mess it made then won't all dreams for Iraq fade and become a civil war zone and starvation and death be rampant if democracy does not suceed and infrastructure rebuild?? They just need to have control and all profit from their resources, like oil, so they can be what Sadam wanted, a great nation... don't you think that he may have wanted that and initially was good guy and maybe that is why the US put him in... and then power corrupted him a bit... or are you telling me the murders and tortures by him and his regime and rapes and such by his sons was all a fabrication of his enemies... I am here to hear other sides so I am listening with an open mind, but I have to tell you he has been painted as evil and as harming Iraq. But I know that is not why Bush attacked and I am not sure why he did anymore... if it was that he sincerly thought WMDs and terrorism were their which was proven wrong and he just had bad advisors and judgment, or if something more malicious as Moores Farenheight implies, as powers have been fucking with people for all history. I see your side. I just think that democracy has to win there now that it has been torn apart. I agree it would have been better if we just kept our business out of there, but the die is cast, the deed is done... don't we owe it to Iraqis to make sure they have democracy and not a worse tyrant this time and worse yet a religous zealot taking over??? you tell me? I am here to learn.

farid wrote:
You can see in the way Jassim and the rest behave when they come here and have the chance to be FREE and run a forum JUST a Forum how hard it is to shake the atmosphere they grew up in..it`s what Iraq was facing in its long road to a REAL Democracy..it doesn`t come naturally to these people, they have no tradition for pluralistic and OPEN talking and thinking..they just want to be Tyrants in a DEMOCRACY!

*** I agree most encounters I have had on forums are tyrants with no democracy and some cases were people lie and twist and try to villify good people with false accuastions to their blind agendas... you are right there and if that is what IRaqis are like as you imply above, then maybe democracy will never suceed and you were right that at least Sadam had control... so is the media lying to us when they say Iraqis are glad he is gone? or is it just the ones in exile who left for a reason that would make them want him gone? I don't know... just trying to get a more full version of the truths we all have.

farid worte:
We don`t "know" a damn thing about what went on...let`s be scientific and rigorous...I don`t KNOW a damn thing about Iraq...but I do know what the United States has done before...and I know what it`s doing now...I know it`s enslaving Iraq, not liberationg it...I know they are there to create as much mayhem and

*** If Kerry is elected, he said he will get us out of there as soon as they are ready to handle chaos to ensure sucess of democracy. I kind of believe him. I don't know what to believe with Bush since he still won't admit he made any mistakes there and we know he did so I understand your skepticism. I hope you are wrong and it was not enslavement or corporate raping for oil and haliburtan types, but I don't know enough to say either way. My gut says that they wanted to combat terrorism and thought with Iraq's cultural and religious and ethnic diversity that it would be the best candidate to plant the seed of democracy in the middle east and be an ally... and they miscalculated for they only made terroirsm worse, us more hated, and Iraq may never be stable from the looks of it and all that happened was loss and suffering, and I am sorry and am just trying to understand and become more educated on all of this.

farid wrote:
>break things down as they can..I know they want a basket case where an independent country used to be...I know they`re making those same noises about Iran and Syria...I know they don`t feel the same about North Korea whom they CAUGHT shipping missles half way round the world..I know they had their sights on Iraq before 9/11...I know the government is made of oil people who`re used

*** yes, they may get caught with thier pants down where korea is concerned... with the whole axis of evil stuff.. and i cringed when i hear that and evil doer comments, cause when people fell they have been so wronged that they fight back you only fuel it with those labels... and i think that is what fuels terrorism and we need to understand that to stop it and not keep fueling it.. but korea may be more an imperialistic urges that we need to worry aobut... its all a viscous cycle that japan fucked with them and now they are going to fuck with the world probably... i am not politcally astute but from what i have heard koreans say, they really hate the japanese so i think they are the ones with the most to worry about korea.

farid wrote:
>to easy money by now..no more than street gang thugs supplying drugs to a dependent populace..and street gangs will kill anybody who messes with their turff or threatens their supply...these things I know far better than I know what Saddam did to his people....I know we just found Christians ran liquour stores and lived in peace and neighborly friendliness with Muslims living nexr door to their Churches...I don`t KNOW what Saddam did with Kurds....but what he

*** I know there is some dichotomy on what is said in the press and on some of these problems about how terribly oppressed christians were in Iraq which I admit i belive, but it does seem they had liberties if they had built churches with muslim neighbors and liquor stores even though it is forbidden in the muslim religion and some had good lives.. but you only hear the complainers so I admit I may be biased... why i come to forums to see what others say.

farid wrote:
> did in no way justifies what the United States is doing...we seem to be acting the part of the bigger Thug..the more murderous force...who caused the starvation of 500,000 children AT LEAST? Who enunciated that as a "policy"...Saddam?

*** I know I am ashamed that I did not even realize all those years when i heard the words briefly mentioned on the news of sanctions against sadam, what that meant for all iraqis, especially children... and i am sorry that nations always use might as right and play politics and manipulate leaders and corporations finagle resources and all these things, I am sorry that maybe my country's life style may be better because of some of that, and that I have been blissfully ignorant of these things... and that this inquiry showed that... I am listening and learning. But as for the polys of starvation of children, Sadam has some hand in it, in that he was agressive to kuwait and while those children were starving he had a lavish lifestyle and lavished money on his grand plans that could have fed those children... and didn't he embezzle billions of dollars out of Iraq.. couldn't that have fed those children? I don't know... maybe noone does... just trying to learn all sides to find out the real truth.

iwrote:
>>>You and Tiglath talk a lot about Iraqi's being Assyrian Muslims. Do you really think that many Muslims living in Iraq identify themselves as Assyrians, considering the lengths Sadam went to to Arabaize Assyrians, do you think that anything but Iraqi national pride was instilled in the school and political systems?
you wrote:
...He didn`t Arabize anybody. That`s another thing for which the boys have no evidence...he tried to forge a common identity and connect it to the larger group in the MidEast..they speak ARABIC...the boys all spoke it ANYWAY...these

*** actually after I wrote that, I thought about it and said maybe he wanted them to be part of iraq and not separate and by speaking arabic, it would be more unifying... so i may be speaking from ignorance or from bias from reading only one side.. i admit... i am listening.

farid wrote:
>complaints come from the villages where the only schooling open to boys was at the church..and the church in the villages is still pissed that Islam trumped Jesus...you can imagine the quality of that "education"..we see the graduates in Jassim and the rest of them...Saddam built government schools in those villages...boys who wanted higher education had to go...but they went with a grudge and a chip on their shoulders..whereas in their church schools the priest wove bullshit but pleasant bullshit about them being the original owners of tha land because they were CHRISTIAN...and taught them all about Syriac manuscripts..they found none of that in government schools and universities.,...but they had to swallow it like Rissian college students had to sing the praises of the Communist Party when they KNEW it was all a lie...their education was now conducted in Arabic...a language they spoke anyway...but now had to learn IRAQI history...and EVERY nation has its national LIE...Saddam wanted to associate his country with the Arabic SPEAKING world..the boys and their priests wanted the comfort and security they thought comes from the ENGLISH SPEAKING World...because it is a CHRISTIAN religious group.

*** yes and being in the middle of all arab speaking countries that was probably right. but did he allow them to learn both arabic and aramaic if they wanted to? i honestly don't know.. that is not a facetious question. And i agree that in a way he was more tolerant for he allowed all religions to flourish in iraq wherease members and leaders of all those religions probably were less tolerant, even look at the problems between sunnis and shiites. I admit that Sadam was not all evil as we have him portrayed for he did want to bring Iraq back to glory, but there probably was some egomania where he wanted to do it as himslef the reincarnated Nebuchanssar... but all leaders are egomaniacs, some, no names mentioned, think they are doign the work of god, god appointed them etc... and someone told me once that some groups wanted Sadam to purge Iraq of Assyrians and he replied that how could he remove the roses from his garden... and i thought maybe he is not all evil then you hear on the news about gassing kurds and torture chambers etc... but i can see from an iraqi point and even sadam, our dropping bombs and killing tens of thousands seem just as evil... each side only sees their own reasons for doing things against god's will like thou shalt not kill.. i have no answers... only questions... why that post was all in question format.

farid wrote:
Saddam had his myth...that the people of Iraq belonged to the Arab World..and they do..as much as the Christians there do...but he NEVER said the Assyrians were Arabs...he said the Muslims of Iraq were ALSO descended from the people of BetNahrain..which they are...of course.

*** I know that we Assyrians seem brainwashed agains that and I was from these forums but I am widening my global perspective and agree that all the people there have a right to be there... and I wish we, the US, had never gone in there too... but now that we have done the damage, we have to help democracy suceed or all hell will break loose and all those bible toating fanatics will get their selffullfilling prophecies of armegeddon and the fall of babylon etc.. that dean keeps promoting.

farid wrote:
To bolster their idiotic church lessons the boys INSIST that no Assyrian would have converted to Islam..that is an absurd point...and they use the fact that

*** then they are double talking cause i have also hurd them say many were coerced and many forced to convert, which says many muslims are assyrians... and wouldn't it be nice if they joined the assyrian voice loudly proclaiming that and having assyrian muslims and christians working together in Iraq to perseve that identity.

farid wrote:
none of them TALK about it A LOT as proof that they aren`t...well Muslim Assyrians don`t TALK...they have a country and they run it..and in textbooks and museums they all acknowledge that they are the descendants of the ancients..every Muslim Assyrian KNOWS that...but they have 1400 years as Muslims...with yet ANOTHER glorious empire to their credit..the Islamic one

*** don't discount their Arab heritage too in Iraq... I saw Lawrence of Arabia and a documentary once on the great Arab history.. nothing wrong with being nomadic tribes at one point since all peoples were that at one point.

farid wrote:
> which was among the greatest the world has seen..because its underpinnings were all Mesopotamian...US. To them their latest achievemnt is foremost in their minds and on their tongues..to the boys the last 1400 years were a tragedy..because Christ lost out...THEY are fixated 1400 years ago when they were Christians and dominant..to them that`s ALL the legitimate history they`re willing to recognize, the rest being a "crime" and "usurpation".

*** yes they were all mespotamian since that is what the area is called unless the immigrated or invaded in... i don't know my world history enough to know the deatils... but i do know that ancient assyrian reliefs the features that i see in my relatives do differ somewhat from most arabs i have seen... but lets not get into germany's trap of who looks more german and therefore the master race.. so actually even though these forums had me thinking in the purer sense of what assyrian is, i agree with you that it might be better to say they all are and have some harmony... as long as it is not used to minimize the assyrian christians as right to be there.. which i know you were not doing... and my apologies if my questions sounded accusatory.. they were not... i am just trying to sort this all out and remembering why i came here to learn and not that distraction last week... so trying to see if i can stay by what i came here for to see and learn more sides and more truths than my little world has allowed.

farid wrote:
The boys "reason" that since Islam came from Arabia and they KNOW no Assyrian adopted it...therfore any MUSLIM in Iraq today originally came fom Arabia with the Arab armies and therefore is a foreigner..never mind that even if that were true...after 1400 years...four times as long as America came into being by STEALING land from THEIR indigenous people...that any descendants of those original Areabs are INDIGENOUS...UN says so..so does everyone else...after a millenium and a half..you are INDIGENOUS.

*** yes, i agree with that... and if the milenium and a half rule is correc then we americans and australians and canadians are all in some deep trouble, and that just dawned on me is probably why the US never talks about assyrians and indigenous rights as the assyrians do on these forums. they don't wnat to open that can of worms. and maybe you are right that the best for them is to become good iraqis and hope democracy suceeds and they get all their rights under democracy since even if they got an isolated zone, it would just infuriate the sensitivities of the area and could be their destruction if all of islam wants to prevent another nonislamic state as they wish they did with isreal. you may be right but i never saw it that way, cause i know how much my grandparents wanted an Assyria, and i figure as a kid if israel did it and recently armenia, then why not assyria, but i guess its locatoin in the middle of iraq is hard to extract with or without sadam. i am happy in america born and raised and grateful for it, so i have no ardent agenda there... i just feel bad and feel sympathy for those i read that i hear wanting it as bad as my grandparents did. me, i can't even have a talk on forums without them hating me, so i am not joining any fight... just trying to educate myself as an american so i can be a better america with a global view and not so isoalted.

farid wrote:
But more than that...this same argument can be used against Christians, whose religion came from Israel so that ANY Christian in BetNahrain or ANYWHERE in the world is really Jew and belongs in Israel...

*** that sounds like dean and paul's argument that religion takes precendence and should be the only factor... having no real religion, i beg to differ... i think the country you are a citizen of is your first priority, then you have a birth right by your ancestors to pride in your ethnicity, and religion is a complete spiritual choice, no matter how many family members or community members or these days even presidents and politicians try to tell you what religion you should be and how you should believe it as they do.

I wrote:
>Sure they are probably proud to be the site of the center of the start of civilization and the garden of Eden, but I read an article once where they talked about that in a major magazine and never mentioned Assyrian, they just said Iraqi's ancestors... so don't you think that Iraq will eventually consume the Assyrian name and identity as arabization tried,
farid wrote:
...so is America...Assyrians in America after one or two generations, never mind 1,400 YEARS..are losing their language and any ties to the old ways..Assyrians in CHRISTIAN America aren`t giving their children Assyrian names...there is no Assyrian culture, there is no anchor anywhere but the church and it`s as destrcutive as it ever was...there soon won`t be church either...Assyrian`s in America can`t WAIT to be Americanized

*** this is why i lie exchanging posts with you for it always makes me realize some brainwashed or bias that i have.... and i want to be a true person and a good person seeing all sides and fair to everyone... oh my god... it just dawned on my that you are right... i went to school and in the history books the history of my land was all american history and nothing of the indians and that is just after a few centuries... so of course after a milenia plus of arab rule, that would be the perspective of their history... and as you said they have lineage from both those of assyria proper, all mesopotamia and arabia. that does make sense and i do realize that my veiws have been narrow there... hmmm.. live and learn... hopefully both ;)

farid wrote:
> with "nationalists" Like Firas Jatou changing his OWN name to the more anglecized Firas ROSS...who yet might morph into Frank Ross. Who made him do it? Who forced him to change his ASSYRIAN name..and I`ll bet his children are Scott and Heather...Ross is trying to GET AHEAD..he wants to BLEND IN with that BAGGAGE that might, especially in coming years, mark his children as one of "those". It`s no different than what they did in Iraq..the church has made such a point of saying that you HAVE to be Christian to be Assyrian that NO Muslim Assyrian is going to use Christian ASSYRIAN as a point of identity..they do indeed say they are decsnded form the ancient Assyrians when there WAS no Christian OR Muslim religion..but as the Christians identify "Assyrian" with Christian..the Muslim`s identify themselves TODAY with Islam...BUT, they are proud of their modern achievements as Muslims with another great empire to their name...it is no more than identifyng with the axis of power and common-religion that makes them say they are a part of the Arab world..which is by FAR the closer of the two...than the Christians who yearn for and pine for and work for the English WORLD!

*** yes you are absolutely correct. i don't think that was what i was denying... but maybe i was subliminally and it came across in my questions... my apology.

farid wrote:
It`s these damned religions that fractured us and are still doing it today...to our ruin.

*** yes you are right again. i agree.

i wrote:
and that is a good reason for Assyrians to be vocal, and if there are Assyrian Muslims, they should be fighting to make democracy stable and working with their Assyrian Christian brethren to make Assyrian a more sizable voice in Iraq?
farid wrote:
...they are not "Assyrians"...they have a claim to being DESCENDED from the ancient Assyrians in NO way they can prove. This language proves nothing as everyone spoke it back then..and it is the language of their RELIGION...anyone moving to that region 1000 years ago would have learned the LANGUAGE. Assyrians aren`t Assyrian in any MEANINGFUL way...it`s ALL Christian all the time and religion is NOT ethnicity...not any more.

*** sounds like dean and paul's argument... you really should be embracing them. so you are telling me all my life when american ignoramouses, especailly christian ones, would tell me that i can't be assyrian cause they are just an ancient people.. and i would get hurt as would my mother and grandparents... you are saying they are right??? i live away from any other assyrians so its not like chicago or modesto where people will have heard of an assyrian community, even if they associate it with christian, i just have gotten the OT crap of us being wiped out, evil and extinct... and just recently over friends house for dinner with her and her husbands parent's there, her father got very vehement that assyrians are an ancient people and don't exist and told me to read the bible in an obnoxious way.... are you telling me thse people are right? i may not be an assyrian by nationality but surely i am by ethnicity and by the love of my grandparents who came from the middle east and who FELT and had no doubts they were assyrian.

farid wrote:
...America was a stable democracy all the years it had Slavery and then Oppression under Jim Crow..it was a stable Demcoracy all the years it fought to deny women the Vote...and equal pay, which they still don`t get...what has a stable demcoracy to do with granting minorities THEIR voice and women were in the MAJORITY? The boys use the word in a completely unreleated sense...Nazi Germany was born from a Democracy as well..what are you people TALKING about? Democracy isn`t Utopia..it isn`t HEAVEN. If you have a majority of vampires in your Democracy it will be a democrcay of vampires..being a democracy doesn`t mean there will be justice for ALL..it means the majority will RULE and the majority in Iraq now has all the MORE reason to resent Western Christianity and ANYONE associated with it..and they`ll see the Christians there as more potential collaborators who would call down THIS kind of "liberation" on their OWN country...how will a Democracy now in Iraq improve conditions for Christians? Let them vote..let them vote all they want to...Blacks in Florida voted...we in America voted..what good did it do us? What are you people TALKING about?

*** you got me with some good points there... i know but i would not live anywhere but under a democracy and actually this one... it aint perfect but it is the only one that i could have a discussion with you like this and be the woman that i am today and enjoy life on my own terms... so it aint perfect for me either and surely wasn't for women and blacks and natives and immigrants for a long time and the elite still rule in ways not talked about... but i don't think i am going to find anything better so i am being a good citizen and educating myself on these things and world views so i can vote more intelligently, speak more globally and have a real conscience and be a good american... for even though it seems sometimes that we americans have to be afraid to criticize the mistakes of our government... that is what keeps improving this country and that was the spirit of our founding fathers, flawed as they were with only thinking white protestant men were created equal... they still did one better than the british imperalist oppressors... and maybe that is all history and governments and people can hope for, is to have each change, each revolution, each generation to one step better... now the problem is if we start going down the steps and the world breaks into chaos... so i worry and try to educate myself since i spent most of my life blissfully ignorant of politics but nowadays noone can afford to be espeically when your country is attacked by terrorists, initiates a war and all the other hazards in our society from industries run amock etc... so i am trying to be less they ugly amerian and more a global mind conscientious america... if i stumble and offend in any of my questions or posts, then i apologize but i do appreciate your well thought out informative replies and they are not a waste of your energy cuase i do learn and open my mind a little to make sure i am not seeing a truth told to me but rather a truth my mind sees.

i wrote:
>And don't you think that the majority of the Muslims are Arab and only some Assyrian and some intermixing and not all Assyrians as some keep impying? I would not mind if all Iraq took the Assyrian identity but couldn't that just be a ploy to minimize Assyrian Christians and their indigenous rights?
farid wrote:
..why SHOULD they use an identity long dead in Iraq to define themselves TODAY? Do you think if Iraq was named Assyria and all Iraqi Muslims called themselves

*** i would agree but don't groups say they are kurds, or arabs for ethnicity on iraqi censors so what do they say... they are not kurds nor arabs, but assyrians... this is not me or america saying it.. this i just read on a post about an iraqi censor that now has the choices of arab, kurd, armenian, chaldean and assyrian and a few others.

farid wrote:
Assyrians and insisted you HAD to be Muslim to be Assyrian..do you think Jassim would call himself Assyrian? This is ONLY a religious name...they are trying to legitimize the theft of land for CHRIST...they have no evidence that stands up anywhere.,..to simply call themselves Assyrian proves nothing..will they also deny Assyrian status to those in America who in fifty years won`t TALK about being Assyrian? It turns out that to be Assyrian you have to be FIRST of all Christian..and then you have to AGREE with whomever is talking the MOST and the LOUDEST...who is him or herself only ONE group of them who are ALL talking and ALL TALK..what kind of Assyrian is THIS? Where did your science go to? Being "vocal" in this case just means being stupid REALLY LOUD.

*** i know, i feel less and less christian on these forums cause everyone expects me to be their rigid dogma christian, and since i don't belong to any church or religion, i had forgotten how that was and why i left religion until i came back here... and they make the mistake of thinking leaving religion is leaving spirituality and they are very wrong, for it is easier to be truely spiritual if you are not religious and if you are too religious it is almost impossible to be truely spiritual.. in my opinion.
And aren't most Iraqis just as proud to be Arab as we are to be Assyrian..

farid wrote:
..they are NOT Arab! Arabs are from Arabia...Egyptians are from Egypt...Syrians from Syria...Iraqis from Iraq. The boys make their religion and LANGUAGE the

*** there you go again making me see something new from a differnet perspective... everyone says iraq is the most culturally and ethnically and religiously mixed population in the middle east... so like the US, maybe it is the melting pot and it does need a new term of Iraqi and to forget labelling ethnicities... but the only thing is didn't most of these assyrians migrte their from isolated villages in turkey and the mountanous regions in between so isn't it likely that they really did remain ethnically unique as assyrians?

*** also you are teh one that put in previous post talking about assyrian mulsims in iraq and now you are saying they are not assyrians but iraqis so you kind of entrapped me on that arugment cause my point was based on yoru point which you are now counter pointing so i am getting a bit dizzy... so best not confuse myself more ;)

farid wrote:
> main syupports of their claim to being Assyrian...they say it is an Assyrian "language"...and so they are ASSYRIAN..they look at anyone who speaks Arabic and say they must be ARABIC..the boys are stupid..we know that. People who are from Australia speak ENGLISH..that does NOT make them English...Americans aren`t English either for speaking the language...Arabic is the domiannt LANGUAGE in that region..like "Assyrian" once was...but Egyptians and Hebrews who spoke the Assyrian language were NOT Assyrians.

*** the language thing always seems like semantics to me so i won't opine further there.

i wrote:
so why do you make it sound like the insurgents are Assyrian?
farid wrote:
..there ARE no Assyrians strictly speaking anywhere in the world and there haven`t been for at least 1000 years. Neither religion can be a SIGN that you are an Assyrian..neither does language prove anything. I believe the blood and genes of all those people of BetNahrain..which the boys oddly enough claim ALL died out EXCEPT Assyrians and they are PURE Assyrian..what happened to science..to Reason and logic? I believe they are as much descended from the ancients as I am...only they do more than TALK..they FIGHT to defend their homeland BetNahrain from the attack of Christians..an attack urged on by Christian Assyrins...which one is acting more the part of the ancients?

*** i agree there is too much religion mixed up with ethnicity in this whole mess... i personally don't consider myself a religion but i do consider myself half assyrian so you are more assyrian than me since both your mother and father considered themselves assyrian i gather... so i am not arguing who is more assyrian... just trying to understand... and i am split when i here your boys talk proAssyrian national pride, i feel that too and then when i hear you make it all sound like nonsense, i feel foolish and it hurts cause all the times it hurt in my life when i said i am half assyrian and people said there is no such thing.... but i have given up and am just here to learn and get a wider view before someone else chases me away or viscously lies about me again like last week ;)

i wrote:
That is why we American Assyrians are so proAmerican cause we don't want to be associated with people against our own country,
farid wrotE:
...what kind of scientist are you? Who in Iraq was EVER against the United States? What have Iraqis DONE to the United States to deserve this?

*** you misinterpret out of context... i was saying when you said all good assyrians are fighting as insurgents... and i was trying to help you to see why the assyrian americans don't take that side... and i was just wondering why you were saying specifically assyrian insurgents when most of them are probably foreigners and sadam loyalists, most of whom probably don't call themselves assyrians... and i agree we should not have invaded but this is still my country... and i wanted you to understand how assyrian americans would not want to be seen as being on the side of insurgents killing our soliders even if our president made a horrible mistake and you are right iraqis did not deserve this... do you understand a rock and a hard place? I was just sharing that.

i wrote:
and you continually stressing that making insurgents out to be all Assyrian, who the American goverment see as terrorists, even though I know you see them as freedom fighters. Then you get made when Assyrian Christians lving in America and many citzens are vocally in support of their country of America... of course we are, that is were our loyalty lies.
farid wrote:
...my loyalty is to America also...

*** i know you are and maybe more than most cause you are for freedom of religion one of the cornerstones of our democracy which others have not shown me on these forums... i was not making a dig at you... i was explaining how hard it must be on iraqi americans these days.. i am not an iraqi america.. for i am 3rd genration only my mother's side form turkey assyrians... my fathers people came here many many generations ago from europe/britan and a mutt of those ethnicities.

farid wrote:
but not these corporate heads who stole the White House...Germans believed they were being loyal when they supported Hitler..and he led them right into the toilet. Anyone who claims Iraqis have no right to defend themselves when

*** and that is why i am trying to learn so i can vote properly and be informed citizen with a global view of all truths cause without americans all doing that then yes, our goverment is as corruptable as any other, and belive me the moore farenheight 9/11 film made me realize that i have to learn more about what goes on... and forums are my only avenue to do that.

farid wrote:
attacked for 14 fucking years is crazy...when America uses an attack by 15 Saudis as an excuse it was waiting for to go kill IRAQIS while its president STILL does business with SAUDIS are their own worst enemies...The Assyrian

*** come election time, when kerry wins you will see that at least half americans agree with that that we had no business going in iraq and attackign, and yes unfortunately kiling iraqis... and our own soldiers at the same time cause a few nutcase saudis went terrorist on us... you are right.. i don't think i said differently and if you misunderstood i apologize... no offense meant.

faird wrote:
Freedom Fighters of Iraq are doing nothing more than any people on earth would do when attacked...setting up puppets fools no one..hell we even got to WATCH as they put their own people in place..people who`d been absent from Iraq for 30 years and more...many of them notorious crooks and traitors to the country already...we SAW it take place and you STILL say they are a legitimate government to be OBEYED?

*** I know and i cringe when the news people demonize any iraqi that is not kissing the feet of americans for a lot of lost a lot and a lot were happy with the status quo and now have lost homes, businesses, family firends, and are afraid for their lives.. i know we americans can be myopic ugly americans... i am trying not to be but you must understand how it is and even iraqis who hated sadam stick up for him when america attacked... for we are all brainwashed with loyalty to our country for they are the ones protecting us.... but i know we never should have attacked iraq.... i think even the republicans know it but just can't admit it for they are afraid of showing weakness, loosing an election, and global repurcussions... but liek religious fanatics just saying something is so does not make it so... i agree with you.

farid wrote:
If you want to stand all Reason on its head just so your pet ideas about Christians can be fulfilled..go ahead..but it does America no good for its citizens to become fools, scoundrels and murderers..no good at all.

*** i have no pet ideas about christians, i am on neither side of the debates on these forums. i am just tyring to find out what is the truth and what to believe in all this mess... and i have to be on the side of america but i also admit the mistakes and don't know how to make it up to iraq other than hope that we give them a stable democracy that is their own without interference or corporate pillaging, and that we help rebuild their country... and that is at great sacrifice of our tax dollars and soldiers.. we never shoud have invaded but now we have to make it right... what is so horrible about thinking that?

i wrote:
We can think invading Iraq was a mistake and feel horrible for the turmoil created and hope our country does right by Iraq, but we are Americans and support out country.
farid wrote:
..that is an absurd statement...after a crimminal act like the war on Iraq how do you "hope" the criminals do right? And ther are millions of Americans who feel this nwar was a crime..are they traitors to America? If you believed Hitler was bad for Germany, whom where you betraying?

*** i feel this war was a mistake and in a way yes a crime since murder and damage was done and on a large scale too but i don't feel i am a traitor to america saying that and incase you don't watch CNN, all the democrats are saying that too... were did i say that???? I said that I can't root against my country but i can vote an incompetant leader out and unfortuntely i have no power so i can only hope that right is done... and if it is not, then you are right we have done wrong...and i did not say anything about being a traitor... if i implied it then you misread.. i just said i can't root for insurgents since they are killing my countries soldiers and even if they are freedom fighters as you say... and maybe that makes me a horrible person by just feeling "bad" about what injustice invading iraq was... but what else can i do but let my vote show my government what to do... and besides if they pull out now civil war will break out and a lot more IRaqis will be killed by these same insurgents that are freedome fighters to you becuase Iraq is not a united whole, never was, just Sadam's iron fist kept it from factions splitting apart... if that is ignorant, i apologize... i am trying to undrestand.

farid wrote:
...with this global bullshit it`s time to see the planet as our home...America cannot go on abusing the rest of the people on the planet..it can`t go on stealing resources so its billionaires can become trillionaires...this is not

*** I agree and i speak to that and vote to that and that is all i can do for i am not a political person but just trying to educate myself here and to share with you why i think things... now see if i had not posted what i did , you would not have replied and helped me to grow this global perspective and not just wave my flag and click the channel on same news show after news show. i think that is more than most americans... at least i am asking questions and trying to see more than what is fed me on fox news, oreilly et al.

farid wrote:
> MY country...my country has been attacked from the inside by Corporations..as they are attacking countries and the poor of the world..whose numbers at home and abroad are growing...your views have nothing of science about them..they are pure jingoism.

*** I know but with this new war on terror, don't you think they are using that fear to keep us more in step... i see all the things you do but don't you think there were assyrians in old assyrian that saw the brutality and imperialism of our ancestors leaders and they just lived their lives... but that is probably why they fell... you oppress and murder and steal and intefere and piss off enough people, eventually they bring you down.. so i am trying to understnad and vote adn voice in a way that brings out all the good points you make to improve my country... for that is all any of us in no power to do... and you are right about corporations and invasions and there is nothing that i can do to protect my tax dollars from going to help rich get richer, my country invade innocent countries like iraq... but all i can do is be a good american and educate myself so they no longer pull the wool over my eyes and i make my vote count and heard... and as for science, there is no science in politics... but i fyou want to get technical, no matter what wrong my country does they are the only country that protects me so of course that is where my loyalty lies, but it is not blind loyalty like Bush et al tried to brainwash is to take advantage of our fear of terrorism and the way the branded anyone a traitor or unamerican if they quesitoned them... i speak my mind and try to see the truth... i don't understand why you are labelling me so harshly... i did not invade nor approve of the invasion just like an average iraqi did not approve of the gassing of kurds or invasion of kuwait by Sadam.

i wrote:
>And why do you cheer on the insurgents? Granted I understand that people were killed, homes and jobs lost so there are a lot of angry Iraqis but aren't some of them foreigners coming in to prevent democracy?
farid wrote:
..the only foreigners in Iraq are the American and British and those working with them to destroy Iraq..as an independant country and make an American camp of it. This insistance that the Iraqi people on their own would do NOTHING is absurd..and if Syrians and Iranians and others, seeing how easily America got away with what it is doing in Iraq for FOURTEEN years and hearing that Iran and Syria are next..take it into their heads to help their own people by helping Iraq..call it PRE-EMPTIVE DEFENSE...where did you get yoiur ideas of how people behave from?

*** i guess then i was misinformed by fox news and cnn cause everytime they talk of insurgents, they make sure to say and many of them are foriegn terrorists that got in during the initial invasion when the borders were not guarded... see that is why i come here to get more than just what i can get in the news shows, magazines and papers available to me.

i wrote:
And isn't democracy the only hope right now for a stable free prosperous Iraq and one with ethnic and religious tolerance?
farid wrote:
...it was America`s hope as well...and we`ve seen how it can be perverted..and using Christr has been the Front of choice. Democracy in itself means majority

*** oh i agree here completely that the greatest threat to US democracy are these fanatic christians and the religious right and moral majority under Bush have turned into a president's rhetoric and the rhetoric of a majority and even voices on news shows... and i am not a typical christian, more agnostic but follower of Jesus' teachings as almost a budhhist like philosophy of living, so i know the danger of this phoney separation of church and state that is getting worse every day... i know.. you are right.

farid wrote:
rule..that`s ALL. And this is NOT the way to bring Democracy to a country...it has to grow from within..we`ve had centuries of Parliamentary tradition to get here...you cannot IMPOSE it...and you cannot impose at the point of a GUN..you can brainwash people into Christ..you can`t do it into Democracy...this is NOT their goal for Iraq..Iraq will be a Corporate State...run by executives..the vote will only affect those areas of least significance..the soul of the nation is being destroyed and what`s left will be imprisoned..the body will be put to work..Iraq is the New World Order Auschwitz...with the inmates being allowed to decide what color uniforms they wear...they will create a wasteland and call it Democracy...and give them time and they`ll do it here...they`re well on their way already.

*** you may be right and that may be why democracy will not suceed in iraq and also why all forms of chrisianity seem to be corrupt and pervert the message of jesus, as i believe all religions pervert their message from islam's message from mohammed to buddhists message from buddha etc..

i wrote:
These insurgets are disrupting reconstruction efforts which not only hurts the Iraqi people getting back to prosperity, the more US soldiers they kill, the more pressure Americans will put on our withdrawal and if they withdraw too soon, not only will democracy fail and chaos rule, and Iraw loose all the reconstruction efforts owed them, but there will be no religious freedom and won't the fanatics take over..
fari dwrote:
...I`m sorry...theis part is just too silly to take seriously..you believe it if you want to. Radicalism was BROUGHT to Iraq and let loose by Bush...not Saddam who fought like hell to keep it sown..this is too silly.

*** so if the US pulls out tomorrow.. you think that is good?? don't you think there will be looting and civil war and attempted coups to take over the country and probably Iran drooling to invade or some other country eager to take its piece... maye Kuwait to get its revenge.. etc.. but you are right that i know littel of this situation and probably am talking silly and out of my ass here... so forgive me but please please educate me... i am listening.

i wrote:
and not only will Assyrian Christians and all Christians there be in trouble, so will all non fundamentalist Islam like the insurgents more than likely are be in grave danger, including Ashurists and Atheists and any other nonMuslim religion anyone is brave enough to profess to in an Islamic state. By the way, are there any Assyrians that follow the religion of old that you and Tiglath are trying to revive of Ashur? and how many? And what do the Muslim majority think and are they seen as dhmimii or infadel?
farid wrote:
...these areŽ`t things I find worthy of discussion. You guys are stuck in another age..you don`t see what`s coming..you`re judging and measurting by Dhimmi standards..like those "Morning in America" adds Reagan was famous for..you`re in your own kind of nostalgia...this reality utterly escapes you.

*** please don't put me back in our BETH days of putting me as in the guys/boys category.. i really am trying to expand my veiw..... i know we agree on a lot regarding religion and disagree on a lot of poltiics but not as much as you would thin... i am sorry if the dhimmit thing is just an urban legend but i keep hearing assyrian christians on these forums saying they know poeple who went through it... but come to think of it, it is always that they know someone and not them... so mabye muslims are getting a bad rap... i don't know... and i don't hate them as i think you are implying... i am tyring to understand the truth and if it is that they are completely tolerant and fair then i would be so happy... i know what my relatives in turkey went through due to nationalism there so i know bad things happen and unfair things always consistently unversally happen. it is not nostalgia, i am an ignorant american kid (well, adult) and if my version from that statement is not the reality over there, then explain.. i like to think that i can percieve the truth when i hear it, but if i don't hear it how can i discern fact from fiction, truth from lies????

>
>Just curious.
>Shush

still just curious. thanks and my apologies if anything offended... it was not my intention.. this is a forum and everyone comes with different opinions and i want to hear as you just kindly did your kind views so thanks for sharing... i hope it/I was not too exasperating ;)
much love,
shush



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