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Posted by parhad (Guest) - Tuesday, June 1 2004, 22:43:04 (CEST) from 200.94.234.125 - 200.94.234.125 - Windows XP - Internet Explorer Website: Website title:

The loophole in the Iraqi Fundamental Law is in article (7-A), where it states that Islam is "a source" of drafting legislations. It did not need to say that it was "the source," because Islamists could always argue based on certain specific interpretation of the Koran to win their arguments about any unfair issue that could be raised by Christians. This in itself defines the limits of the Christians' religious freedoms very strictly, including for example building of churches; ringing the churches' bells; or as simple matters as related to women's dress. This is possible because article (7-A) is clear that: "No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam … may be enacted during the transitional period." It is obvious that there are fundamental issues in Islam that contradict with Christianity. If that is the case, how can Christians of the Middle East, the Cradle of Christianity, survive under such provisions? …you should have thought of all this before you worked for Saddam`s ouster. Women in Iraq were more liberated than in America..the clerics were held in check….there was no Sharia Law. It`s your fault more than the fault of Iraqis…who didn`t want this war either and don`t want the new laws being shoved down their throats now by America. It`s your kettle of fish..why are you crying now? …Being a sovereign nation doesn`t mean being pleasing to you. In times of insecurity and attack, religious fundamentalists gain ground..this was true in America after 9/11 and it`s been true in the Islamic world for years..ever since America began the offensive by arming and supporting and putting to work Israelñ…these kinds of attacks against nations and people makes them revert to fundamentals…there`s a feeling that they have displeased god…Pat Robertson said it, so did several others. The war in Iraq was intended to make the extremists stronger…and it`s doing just that. Government's policies in connection with construction of sanctuaries that belong to different religions are unfair in many countries. This includes necessary permits and government grants or assistance to erect mosques and churches. This unfair practice is very old and a simple look at one set of data explains it all. According to Ottoman documents, there were 32 mosques and 13 churches in Mosul's urban area during 1892-1893. By 1894-1895, the mosques have increased by 97 to 129, meanwhile the churches increased by only 4 to 17 [6]. This happened despite the fact that the Christian population in Mosul region was still significant in the latter parts of the nineteenth century. ..the Christian popuklation has been steadily decreasing..you don`t think a priest is actually going to go out and get a job to continue “his heart`s calling”…do you? We have many warning signs for the rise of Islamists threat in Iraq: …Israel was the first…and the Sanctions and war on Iraq were another step along that path..all supported by you boys. - Many Assyrian Christian families throughout Iraq have received letters ordering their women to wear the Hijab (woman's veil) [7]. - The threatening of many Assyrians who owned liquor stores in southern and central Iraq to close their business [8]. - The killing of Assyrians who own liquor stores in Basrah (southern Iraq) and Ramadi (central Iraq). Hundreds of Catholic Assyrian families have escaped the southern Iraq city of Basra already and returned to the original villages of their forefathers in the Mosul (Nineveh) plain [9]. - The killing of nuns and priests [10]. - Attacks on Assyrian Christians while celebrating their traditional rituals, such as the recent attack on Assyrians celebrating Kaalu Sulaqa in Kirkuk [11]. …..Iraqis have been killed at their weddings..so have Afghanis…Muslims have been attacked in their homes and mosques and their entire country was and is being attacked…are you serious? The United States neds fundamentalists like they needed Communists..it`s business at the old stand..you just fell for it is all…you dummy. You don`t encourage a stable, relaxed, secure government by making nonsense wars against the children and parents…this will always unlñeash extremism because it is an EXTREME thisg to do…you can`t blame someone for bleeding on your rug if you drive a knife through their head..had the Christians not done this…no extremists would have had a following. - Attack and intimidate of Christian communities throughout Iraq [12]. - Attack churches in north of Iraq using machine guns and plant bombs in schools run by churches in Mosul [13]. ..of course..and more will come. Did you think the Muslims would sit and take this abuse and murder brought by Christians..with the loud cheers of expatriot Iraqi Christians? Would America do nothing if it was attacked by a Muslim country for 14 years and had a half million of its children killed…would it do NOTHING to Muslims in America now making DEMANDS that they be given this and that? Are you daft? America was attacked by 16 mean of Saudi nationality mostlry…so they claim…and it went killing Afghanis and then Iraqis…does that sound like a measure response to you? Many Moslem countries today continue to impose heavy penalties and fines on top of prison terms for proselytizing a Moslem to another religion. In fact, repudiation of Islam is considered a crime worthy of death, whereas the Moslem has the right to proselytize Christians. The Koran states in the Family of the Imran chapter (3:118): "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand." This scares many Christians who have to live, or are living, among Moslems (Muslims). ..are you NUTS! Muhammad had every good reasonj to warn his people away from Christians. Just look at the dismal record of what Christians have done to those countries! Despite what the Koran says…there is friendship and cooperation between Christians, Muslims and Jews..as there lived side by side in peace in Ottoman Turkey before the West came looking to steal oil. To understand the fears of Christians from living in an official Islamic state, we must understand a very important principle of Islamists, which is Jihad (holy war against non-Moslems). The aim of jihad, writes Ye'or, is to subjugate the peoples of the world to the law of Allah, decreed by his prophet Muhammad. Mankind is divided into two groups, …and I suppose Muslims have no reason at all to fear Christians? especially those who might become new Levies? Muslims and non-Muslims. The former compose the Islamic community, the umma, who own the territories of the dar al-Islam governed by Islamic law. Non-Muslims are harbis, inhabitants of the dar al-harb, the lands of war, so called because they are destined to come under Islamic jurisdiction, either by war (harb), or by the conversion of their inhabitants. According to the jurisconsult Ibn Taimiya (fourteenth century), the property of non-Muslims must revert legitimately to the sole followers of the true religion (Islam) [14]. The message is clear. …go to hell. You are digging into every obscure corner you can to paint the picture the way you need to see it..to cover your own personal inadequacies you purport to reveal “truths” about Islam..like all the property you COULD have had…would have reverted to Muslim hands..so you didn`t bother to get rich. Despite the call of the Koran to protect the People of the Book (meaning Christians and Jews), still, there are realities of life in many Middle East and other countries in Asia and Africa. It is almost impossible to change 1300 years laws and practices by simply issuing passive constitutions that sound impressive on paper. The state has to set example by issuing strict and unbiased penal codes in its laws and implement such laws against all those who transgress on the liberties of others. This seldom happens in the Moslem world, as Christians and Moslems are not treated equally in courts of law. Furthermore, the testimony of a Christian is never considered in the same level to that of a Moslem. If a court case came down to the word of a Christian against that of a Moslem, chances are the Christian will lose. …and do you think now that a Muslim will win over a Christian…in America??? You are all cut from the same cloth..matters not at all the pattern. Indeed, many countries in the Moslem world promise personal rights, almost a copycat of those granted under the constitution of the United States. However, how many countries prepare the healthy atmosphere to allow people to practice those rights freely and without fear? …ask Afro-Americans…ask Latin Americans…ask Japanese Americans…ask Chinese Americans…ask women who are still fighting for equal pay and benefits Words on paper cannot change the mentality of people. Iraq needs time; at least two generations to rehabilitate the society that has been brain washed, if, that is, all conditions on the ground were accommodating. Meanwhile, Assyrian Christians cannot sit idle, an easy prey for the fundamentalists' frame of mind. …yes they can…and they will. No one is going to give Christians anything..you yourself just outlined the reasons by your own dismal lies about the “true” nature of islamicists…you know damn well you won`t get anything..this is simply more of that effort to get as many people UNTITTYING behind YOUR denomination..so you boys can thrash each other…you could give a shit about Iraq or Iraqis. Assyrian National Perspective in Twentieth Century During World War I and the ensuing years, Ottoman Turkey massacred some 2,500,000 of its Christian population (1,500,000 Armenians; 750,000 Assyrians; and 300,000 Greeks) and committed the first genocide of twentieth century. ..no it didn`t. Not if the figures from the UN for the genocide against Assyrian children in Iraq are to be dismissed. There was no U.N. then..no Amnesty International…only your frigging Syriac manuscripts…yopu believe all that without question..while refusing to accept the Un figures and more importantly, the implications of those figures for your stand as one who is concerned for Christians in Iraq. …No one ever mentions that the entire war against Turkey was uncalled for..a simple war of aggression like this one…and for the same oil fields. You all behave as if Turkey went out ahd declared war….on its own…against the MOST powerful industrialized nations of that day! What about the Turks massacred by Christians in that war? The members of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) in their October 1911 Congress had already defined their policy towards the Assyrians, Armenians, and Greeks. According to renowned historian Arnold Toynbee, the congress declared: “Sooner or later the complete Ottomanisation of all Turkish subjects must be effected; it is clear, however, that this can never be attained by persuasion, but that we must resort to armed force… The nationalities are a quantité négligeable. They can keep their religion but not their language. The propagation of the Turkish language is one of the sovereign means of confirming the Mohammedan supremacy and assimilating the other elements” [15]. Ottoman Turks did not stop there; they changed the northern Iraq demographic picture as well. Toynbee writes: The Ottoman Government, desiring a barrier against Persia, encouraged the Kurds to spread themselves over Armenia; it welcomed less the Shammar and Anazeh Arabs, who broke over the Euphrates about the year 1700 and turned the last fields of Northern Mesopotamia to desolation; but it was too impotent or indifferent to turn them out [16]. …There is nothing new in trying to force cultural compliance…both America and Britain stole children from their Native parents and forbade them from speaking their languages or practicing their customs..if you were only half the idiot you claim to be you`s read ALL history and not just those parts you think prooooves your point. Turkey might well have taken that page from the American or British handbook on how to make “one nation”. When the Kingdom of Iraq was established in 1921, many of its government officials were of Turkish and Kurdish background. On top of that, many of these officials were previously employed in the Ottoman Turkish civil and military services. These same officials took part in the Christian genocide in Turkey during and after WWI. …there was no genocide. Distrusting Christians and not wishing them on their borders..and responding to Armenian treason…the government marched the Christians towards the center and remote parts..many died and many were killed….like Iraqis were beaten to death by American soldiers and fucked too. So far all we have is tit for tat brutality with everyone implicated..but none more than the two Christian countries you`re calling for help from..like they`ve ever been champions of anybody. The massacre of Assyrians in Iraq in 1933 was therefore coming; it was only a matter of time. …as it will again. You neglected to mention that Vhristians allowed to settle in Iraq took up British arms and wore British uniforms and got paid by the invading, occupying British to act as a police force and shoot down Iraqis who then as now didn`t appreciate being killed by guests. All treachery and killing is deplorable..howevere you only seem to mind it when a Muslim kills a Christian. These officials, and subsequent officials, continued practicing earlier policies by attempting to Arabize, Turkify, and Kurdify the Assyrian population. …that would make for one helluva neighborhood. Some world leaders and international groups envisioned this reality. They lobbied throughout the first quarter of the twentieth century for the Assyrian cause and a small Assyrian administrative region: The "Assyrian Triangle" or "Little Assyria" (defined as the triangular region with the following boundaries: the Tigris River to the west; Upper Zab River to the East; and the Iraqi-Turkish borders to the north). …never happen..those “leaders” were all Church people who love the idea that you`re all so thrilled to have turned your backs on such a great culture to become lackeys for them…you`d make a good display for Christianity. The settlement of Assyrians in a homogenous enclave has been an unresolved issue since the conclusion of World War I; meanwhile the promise itself of the Allied Forces predates the state of Iraq. Nisan writes that in 1918, the Anglo-French Declaration referred to indigenous government for the Assyrians as part of postwar principles of settlement [17]. The official United States government report by the Inter-allied Commission on Mandates in Turkey, American Section, also known as the King-Crane Commission Report, issued August 28, 1919, guaranteed special considerations not only for Kurds but for Assyrians as well [18]. …yeah yeah yeah..and the Seminole Native Americans have a treaty in their possession signed by Congress and the Presidentr then promising them all of Florida…tell it to the Marines. The Assyrians threw in their lot with the Allied Forces during WWI. Later, Great Britain, a significant member of the Allied Forces, represented the mandatory power over Iraq. The Assyrians took this step because they were given guarantees for future safeguarding. One of these assurances is quoted by Sir Henry Dobbs, His Britannic Majesty's Government representative in Iraq or High Commissioner (1923 – 1929) at the time of the Iraqi-Turkish frontier dispute and Assyrian settlement were being negotiated. According to Gertrude Bell, who had great influence in the shaping of present Iraq, Dobbs had stated that in order to assure the Assyrians their future, …this thing you refer to, oh so quaintly, as, a “step”, is called TREASON elsewhere. assurances were to be made by Iraqi government. Dobbs added that these assurances were present as two successive Iraqi cabinets (of Ja'far Pasha and Yasin Pasha) officially pledged to provide lands for Assyrians and to establish a system of administration for them that will ensure their utmost possible freedom from interference [19]. Next was Article 62 of the 1920 Treaty of Sévres that granted protection and safeguarding for the Assyrians (also known as Chaldo-Assyrians or Assyro-Chaldeans) in their ancestral lands. However, Turkey did not ratify the Treaty of Sévres and the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne replaced it. …if you`re really going to quote treaties without divulging the fact that they are made to be broken…when the time comes…then you really should quit. Still, article 39 of the Treaty of Lausanne states that: "Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities will enjoy the same civil and political rights as Moslems." Moreover: "All the inhabitants of Turkey, without distinction of religion, shall be equal before the law." Article 40 states: "Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals." Article 41 states: "In towns and districts where there is a considerable proportion of Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities, these minorities shall be assured an equitable share in the enjoyment and application of the sums which may be provided out of public funds under the State, municipal or other budgets for educational, religious, or charitable purposes." Articles 42, 43, 44, and 45 are all provisions to guard the non-Moslems in future Turkish Republic. However, none of these promises, provisions, or treaties that looked good on paper was honored. In fact, within weeks from the conclusion of Lausanne, thousands of Assyrians of southeastern Turkey were even deported from Turkey towards Syria or killed in 1923. There is precedence here because just after the promises of the Iraqi government, 3000 innocent Assyrians were massacred in northern Iraq few months after the promises of the Iraqi government were issued [20]. …the countries not honoring these treaties..like the countries that drew them up…have ALL not honored treaties. Why do you think anyone will be outraged to hear a treaty was broken? In all your “vast” readings…have you never come across this? Yet later, the League of Nations Frontier Commission that was formed to address the disputed issue of the borders between Iraq and Turkey and the settlement of the Assyrian Christians who lost their lands during WWI, recommended the following in its report: "Since the disputed territory will in any case be under the sovereignty of a Moslem State, it is essential in order to satisfy the aspirations of the minorities—notably the Christians, but also the Jews and Yezidis—that measures should be taken for their protection. It is not within our competence to enumerate all the conditions which would have to be imposed on the Sovereign State for the protection of these minorities. We feel it our duty, however, to point out that the Assyrians should be guaranteed the re-establishment of the ancient privileges which they possessed in practice, if not officially, before the war. Whichever may be the Sovereign State, it ought to grant these Assyrians a certain local autonomy, recognizing their right to appoint their own officials …" [21] These recommendations were ignored because Great Britain did not want to disturb its relations with the Arabs and the new Iraq Kingdom. It sacrificed the Assyrian Christians for its own oil interests in Iraq. …yes..and for that very same reason no one is going to put Christians on top of oil wells. The Assyrians, meanwhile, and despite betrayal by the British and massacre by the Iraqi Army, remained loyalists to the legitimate Iraqi throne. In April and May 1941, during World War II, it was the predominantly Assyrian Levy force in Habbaniya (west of Baghdad) that saved Iraq from falling into the hands of Nazi Germany [22]. History has taught us that no matter how hard the Assyrians tried; how loyal they remain; and how peaceful and law abiding they behave in their ancestral lands in the Middle East, they will always be oppressed and persecuted simply because they are ethnically and religiously different from those around them. …no. That isn`t what history teaches at all..that`s what your Hysteria teaches. In the first place Assyrians are Muslim in greater numbers than they are Christian. Through an amazing bit of tripe you people have decidede that your Christian village lifestyle MUST be the only ASSYRIAN one..why? Because you claim that all Asyrians ran to YOUR villages centuries ago when their empire collapsed and they took fright…how handy, they just happened to all run to where you would be born one day..maybe that should tell you something??? Tariq Azziz…Dr Donny George,….my own father and many, many Assyrian Christians did just fine in the Mideast….it was Christians who lied to the Iraqi government and said my grandfather had no diploma..becayse they were jealous of his success…the Muslims came to him freely and he never suffered anything..my father was head of the Health Department of Kuwait etc and etc. What you boys mean is that making claims to the country, or any part of it, based on your claims of being the indigenous people gets you nothing but laughs and spit…so you look around for help and sympathy and can only get it from outside Christians who look to use you when they arrive…and it is for this that you are despised…rightly so…and in doing this you have ruined things for the rest of the Christians who got smeared by your stupid actions and claims…just as you have once again made their lives hell by working for, paying for and cheering on this lates act of brutality against people who never did a thing to deserve it..not a thing. You bring misery and woe and retribution on your own heads..then you expect the very people you slander with the most outrageous lies and accusations of bloodthirsty inhumanity…to make “nice” with you. If Muslims are indeed what you say they are…you`d have all been killed or driven out long ago..but the fact that inspite of all that`s happened, Christians could attain high office during the height of the war on Iraq..shows just how tolerant and forbearing Iraqis are Solution Therefore, if the United Nations was to be involved in Iraq, it must finds the ways and means to protect the helpless and smaller religious and ethnic groups in Iraq, …why? What makes you think the U.N., whose figures you don`t accept, has any interest in saving or protecting anyone? Who listened to it before? With a Black man at its head the U.N. sttod by while a million Africans were butchered…what makes you think anyone cares about the plight of you? like the Assyrian and Armenian Christians, Yezidis, and Mandeans, until that time arrives when Iraqis prove worthy to rule themselves under a fair and just law. …The Uinited States cannot impose fair and just anything..it cheats and lies and steals at home and elsewhere often enough..maybe you haven`t read those books either…but others have. The United States must not leave Iraq before securing the future of these non-Moslem indigenous groups and minorities. The United States must not repeat the 1932 mistake of the British as the latter helped Iraq enter the League as a sovereign state without securing the future of the already troubled Assyrians. It took only months after Iraq became completely independent and member of the League of Nations when the 1933 Assyrian massacres, wholesale looting, and lost of Assyrian lands and villages took place. It is outrageous to realize today that it was a matter of expenditures and economical pressure on Her Majesty's government that the British sacrificed the fate of the Assyrian race in Iraq. Dodge hopes that Ambassador Paul Bremer would not succumb to the temptations of cutting corners in Iraq while facing congressional worries about expenditure and public concerns about casualties [23]. …that`s right..proclaim it on the internet, you jackass…that your hopes lie with Paul Bremmer and Rumsfeld and Bush…go on..put the nail in the Christian coffin and then put the blame on “cruel” Islam. Islam didn`t attack the United States..the United States has been attacking Islam through Isreal for decades. By singing the praises and begging for the further support and presence of the very people who crafted the lies that led to this war on the people of Iraq…you actually expect to win peace and security? Wulluh you are a dangerous fool. Assyrians have survived constant and unremitting attacks on their very existence in Iraq, from the beginning of the establishment of the state in 1921. The pressure increased after the power seizure by the Ba'athist regime in 1968. Nor do the years of surviving in a state of intimidation and coercion in northern Iraq persuade most that a Kurdish government in its initial stages of formation would have the experience, foresight or respect for the rights of anyone who does not proclaim himself or herself 100 percent Kurdish [24]. For many Assyrians the record of the past twenty years (or perhaps going back to the murder of Assyrian freedom fighter Margaret George on April 26, 1969) of trying to work with Kurds has shown amply that the immaturity of the Kurdish polity is such that, unchecked by international standards, it would be incapable of treating Assyrians fairly. There are big problems facing the Christians in Iraq. The indigenous Assyrian Christians …you are not indigenousd anything and you for one are long gone. Christianity is not indigenous to the region…and you are merely Christian Assyrians..you are not ALL Assyrians. No one hates Assyrians for anything in Iraq for Assyrians never did anything to harm their own Heritage in Iraq..it is you Christians who look to the murderers of your neighbors to secure you “peace”…that are hated..and for good reason. You deserve every rotten thing that ever happens to you…just as the Iraqi people NEVER deserved to be treated this way..a way in which you spy a hope that if you can get enough Christians there killed…someone will feel alarmed enough and sorry enough to give you a triangle. have no chance to survive in Iraq under a constitution that declares Islam as the official religion of the State and the Shari'aa as a source for its laws. They have no chance to survive in a country ruled with the influence of Islamists, pan-Arabs, and Kurdish separatists' dreams. The Assyrians cannot survive under a constitution that suggests that Iraq is made of two "major" ethnic groups Arabs and Kurds in addition to other "minor" ethnic groups like Assyrians (Chaldo-Assyrians) and Turkomen. All ethnic groups of Iraq must be treated equal. …you should have thought o that before..”better the devil you know”…you know? We must understand the roots of the Middle East Islamic societies in order to realize that even in a fair election, secular and women groups have little chance facing the fundamentalists. I know what you mean…those of us who voted for Gore got cheated…”Islamicist Style”. The Islamist groups have two crucial advantages. First, they speak a simple language that is familiar to the common Moslem. Political or secular groups, on the other hand, speak a language that is to some extent alien. Second, the Islamists have a powerful medium through which their message is effectively propagated on consistent basis, and that is the mosque during the Friday prayers. The indigenous Assyrian Christians must be granted safe haven within a federal Iraqi state, in which they can administer themselves and live in peace as proud Iraqi citizens. Kurds must be the only favorite group to have such privilege. What is more suitable than to live in the Nineveh plain (Mosul region, in north of Iraq), the holy land of their forefathers, Assyria? …bullshit. You Christians can`t live in peace in Ceres…you can`t live in peace or democracy on a forum…your holy land is Jerusalem..not BetNahrain..you have rained down destruction on BetNahrain for the benefit of Jerusalem. You will get nothing and you knew that from the start..this has all been a murderous campaign in the longstanding denominational wars that are all you people care about. Soon you`ll begin “wondering” who LOST THE TRIANGLE! References: ..like you used any of these… [1] Dodge, Toby. Inventing Iraq: The Failure of Nation Building and a History Denied. New York: Columbia University Press, 2003. P. 31. [2] Ibid, p. 38. [3] Nisan, Mordechai. Minorities in the Middle East: A History of Struggle and Self-Expression. North Carolina and London: McFarland & Company, Inc. Publishers, 1991. P. 162. [4] Khadduri, Majid. Independent Iraq: A Study in Iraqi Politics since 1932. London: Oxford University Press, 1951. P. 44. [5] Inati, Shams C. "The Iraqi Christian Community." In Iraq: Its History, People, and Politics. Shams C. Inati, ed. New York: Humanity Books, 2003. p. 135. [6] Shields, Sarah D. Mosul Before Iraq: Like Bees Making Five-Sided Cells. New York: State University of New York Press, 2000. P. 70. [7] Information received from people visiting Iraq lately. Read also: a) http://www.newsandletters.org/Issues/2003/December/Yanar_Dec03.htm b) http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=3918 [8] http://www.hrwf.net/html/iraq_2003.html#ChristianFamiliesTargeted [9] http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.do?itemID=366687&extID=10032&oliID=213 Read also: a) http://www.hrwf.net/html/iraq_2003.html#Christiansmurdered b) http://www.sotaliraq.com/file/article_2003_12_30_44158y.html [10] http://aina.org/releases/2002/cecilia.htm [11] Attacks in Kirkuk revealed to this author in recent contact with relatives in Kirkuk. [12] http://www.hrwf.net/html/iraq_2003.html#ChristiansinNorthern [13] http://www.atour.com/news/assyria/20031119a.pdf (Read az-Zaman Newspaper, Nov. 19, 2003 issue). [14] Ya'or, Bat. The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude. London: Associated University Presses, 1996. P. 40. [15] A. J. Toynbee. Turkey: A Past and a Future. New York: George H. Doran Co., 1917. pp. 25-26 [16] A. J. 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The full topic: same old same old... parhad - Tuesday, June 1 2004, 22:42:17 (CEST) old same old same parhad - 06/01 22:43

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