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=> A note from Roger Waters to Abe Foxman Roger Waters on August 29, 2013

A note from Roger Waters to Abe Foxman Roger Waters on August 29, 2013
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A note from Roger Waters to Abe Foxman
Roger Waters on August 29, 2013

Dear Mr. Foxman,

Thank you for your letter. I will try to address the points you make, in the order that you make them. With the general proviso though, that I am wary of, and wearied by any form of slanging match.

Anti Semitism:

I think I note a change in A.D.L.’s position on my work, but it is not clear. Are you accusing me or my work of anti-Semitism or not? For the record I am not anti-semitic, neither is my theatrical piece The Wall and nor are any of the props, puppets or projections in that work.

You are right in saying that I have attacked The Israeli Governments’ policies in Gaza, the West Bank, and in Israel itself. You are wrong in your conclusion that my criticism of the policies of the Government of Israel requires the A.D.L. to “reexamine your attitude towards Jews”.

I have no attitude towards Jews. I do not group or categorise human beings in that way. I know many people who are Jewish, I have many very close friends who are Jewish, my two Grandsons are Jewish. I also have many friends who are not Jewish, who are Christian, Moslem, Buddhist, Agnostic, whatever, they are my friends, and I love them, their faith or lack of it is irrelevant to me.

I do however have an antipathy to racism and bigotry, I have no time for racists or bigots whatever their religion or their race or their politics or the color of their skin.

You speak of the omission of “important details” from my letter, if I may, to provide context I will quote you here:

“Important details are omitted from your letter, which is a classic propaganda technique. Why didn’t you point out that one of the stated objectives of the BDS movement, promoting a complete right of return for all Palestinians classified as refugees and the creation of a bi-national state, would result in the end of the Jewish character of the State of Israel and destroy Jewish national self-determination? Your writing also makes no mention of Palestinian terrorism, nor does it provide any context to the complex nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Hamas, a terrorist organization which continues to advocate for Israel’s destruction, is entirely absent from your letter.”



You accuse the Israeli government of committing ethnic cleansing by physically evicting non-Jewish families from East Jerusalem to make way for Jewish occupants, yet provide zero evidence for this frivolous claim. You argue that Israel is akin to Apartheid South Africa, despite the complete and equal rights enjoyed by Arab citizens of Israel.

Your point about the right of Palestinian refugees to return is well taken, it is, as you say central to the B.D.S. position. The refugee’s right to return is enshrined in Article 13 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and The Fourth Geneva Convention and in UN resolution 194. This fundamental human right is a founding stone upon which the possibility of a civilized future for mankind rests. You are wrong, however in your assertion that B.D.S. requires a single bi-national State. The B.D.S. movement is open to a two State solution, the whole point of B.D.S. is to encourage any peaceful solution that guarantees equal rights to all the people regardless of race or religion. Is your position that the refugees should not be allowed to return? Should the refugees remain refugees forever? How would you feel if the boot was on the other foot? You are in a better position than most to understand the enormity of The Nakbah having been through a diaspora of your own.

Turning now to Hamas; Hamas does not “continue to advocate Israel’s destruction”. The charter you quote is out of date.

On December 1st 2010 Hamas Leader Ismail Haniyeh stated, “ We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees” In February 2012 Hamas forswore the use of violence.

I wish my claims as to the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem were “frivolous”, sadly they are anything but, I direct you to two pieces of corroborative evidence, 1) Roadmap to Apartheid 2012 a documentary film by Ana Nogueira a white South African and Eron Davidson a Jewish Israeli. And, 2) Extreme Rambling, Walking Israel’s Separation Barrier. For Fun. 2011 by Englishman, Mark Thomas.

Moving on, again for clarity’s sake I quote your text:

“Most disturbing of all is your decision to single out Israel for a boycott, while ignoring real human rights abusing countries around the world.”

Your question about singling out Israel for a cultural boycott is an interesting one. I equally deplored the occupation of East Timor or The Western Sahara, but one cannot take up cudgels for every just cause, if one tried to one would be spread too thin, so to speak. Also B.D.S. had already started in Palestine, so I joined an existing movement of people who were organized and proposing a non violent method of resistance to the occupation and inequality of Palestinian Israeli citizens civil rights.

Having said that, I do also support organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights watch which try to focus on all human rights violations and abuses where ever they may occur. I haven’t been everywhere, so there’s a lot of bad stuff going on that I haven’t seen with my own eyes. I do absolutely agree with you that I should speak out as often as possible against all abuses of human rights. As a matter of fact everywhere we perform “The Wall,” I speak in the local language and dedicate the Wall Concert to All The Victims of State Terrorism All over The World.

Finally, I notice you couldn’t resist the little anti-semitic dig at the end of your letter.

“Mr. Waters, having many Jewish friends and relatives does not give legitimacy to your hostile campaign against the Jewish State, and while painting a Star of David on your pig may have been free of anti-Semitic intent, your strong animosity towards Israel is indeed riddled with it.”

Just to reiterate my position, I am anti-war, anti-apartheid, anti-racist, pro human rights, pro peace and pro self-determination for all peoples. I am not anti-Israel or anti-semitic.

I am also passionately pro dialogue and thank you for taking the time and trouble to share your thoughts with me in this open letter. You speak of a Two State Solution, and although I know you don’t represent the Israeli Government, you do represent a point of view, and I should be most interested to hear what you think such a solution would look like, both geographically and demographically. Where would you think it just and equitable to put the borders between two such states, and who would live where? Given the continuing policies of occupation, colonization and settlement building in the West Bank and the siege of Gaza, it is very difficult for any neutral observer to imagine that the Israeli Government is serious in moving towards an equitable two state solution.

However, It maybe that there is a glimmer of light this week. We are assured by John Kerry, Secretary of State for Barack Obama that peace talks are taking place in Jerusalem. These are secret talks so we don’t know who is having them or on behalf of whom, but, should those talks bare fruit and a just and equitable peace break out, then it will be time to tear down the walls and picket lines, end the boycotts, clamber disheveled over the barricades and join the people in the streets.

I will be there with every musician I can muster.

Yours sincerely,

Roger Waters
Budapest, Hungary

PS – “Teacher leave those kids alone“



{ 37 comments... read them below or add one }
Joe Catron says:
August 29, 2013 at 1:47 pm
“In February 2012 Hamas forswore the use of violence.”

Excuse me?

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seanmcbride says:
August 29, 2013 at 1:53 pm
It turns out that one of the greatest musical artists of the last half century is also a formidable writer and thinker. Abraham Foxman picked the wrong person to engage in a debate about Israel — in the future he should seek out softer targets for his habitual accusations and insinuations of antisemitism. Waters can bite back.

This is a classic standoff: a creative universalist vs. a dogmatic ethnic nationalist. It’s not really a fair fight — the outcome has been decided before the debate even begins.

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Kathleen says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:42 pm
Indeed

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Krauss says:
August 30, 2013 at 2:09 am
Foxman’s main argument is so obvious:

If you don’t support Jewish supremacism then you are a racist.

Uhm, actually, if you don’t support Jewish supremacism, then you’re an anti-racist.
Someone should question Foxman why he always defends Israel’s occupation policies. He even refused to denounce Ariel as a settlement. He’s been defending some of the most racist laws passed.

Why is a Jewish supremacist like Foxman given a clean pass?

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seafoid says:
August 30, 2013 at 10:27 am
His argument is “we are Jewish and we can do whatever the hell we like and anyone who disagrees is a Jew hater” .

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James Canning says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:02 pm
Bravo. Hamas and Hezbollah have made it clear, at least in my view, that they accept the 2002 Saudi peace plan (accepting Israel within “1967″ borders). Even Iran has indicated this is acceptable to Iran if it is acceptable to the Palestinians.

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seafoid says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:06 pm
Foxman is a classic bully. He works by intimidation and he can’t handle arguments that are better than his.

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James Canning says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:13 pm
Classic bully. And proud of it.

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Les says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:17 pm
If Foxman is truly opposed to bigotry, why does he not object to the 24/7 portrayal by the big US print and broadcast media of Palestinians, not just as opponents of Israel’s ethnic cleansing, but as a dark and swarthy people sure to be appreciated by America’s white racists, only some of whom are Jews.

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Chu says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:23 pm
I’ve seen Waters perform a few times. Last in Hollywood, he had a great big flying pig,
right around the Iraqi Freedom(!) mission. And since he’s British, you have to wonder if a group here in the US could have the same impact, given the music industry is very similar to Hollywood – sort of shut up, do your performance and get paid. Love it or leave it, USA style.

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Kathleen says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:41 pm
Go on over to a note from Roger. A bit of a discussion going on. A Simon Parker repeating the Hasbara Files

On Facebook

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Eva Smagacz says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:44 pm
Taking smears head on!
Should refugees be refugees forever?
Superb!

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yrn says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:51 pm
A Jewish group in the German city of Duesseldorf is urging a boycott of an upcoming concert by former Pink Floyd band member Roger Waters for using an inflatable pig featuring a Star of David during his show.

He will end up like Gilad Atzmon.

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amigo says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:20 pm
“A Jewish group in the German city of Duesseldorf is urging a boycott of an upcoming concert by former Pink Floyd band member Roger Waters for using an inflatable pig featuring a Star of David during his show.”y-arn

More zionist whiners.Best of luck mutthead.

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Talkback says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:30 pm
yrn says: “A Jewish group in the German city of Duesseldorf …”

The Jewish community of Duesseldorf.

“He will end up like Gilad Atzmon.”

Sure. LOL.

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just says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:38 pm
LOL. Good luck with that………..

rotflmao! Atzmon is doing ok.

Waters is as well– in fact, his ‘star’ continues its ascent.

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Kathleen says:
August 29, 2013 at 6:57 pm
Atzmon generalizes a great deal. Spent an evening with him and a group of activist. Like him…smart funny, kind. Rogers is far more fine tuned in his choice of words and facts. Although Atzmon has had a close up view. Having been in the IDF

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ErsatzYisrael says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:56 pm
yrn says:
August 29, 2013 at 2:51 pm

“He will end up like Gilad Atzmon.”

You, on the other hand, will end up with nothing. Nothing at all.

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tree says:
August 29, 2013 at 7:11 pm
Obviously they don’t know about the history of Roger Waters and flying pigs. He’s been floating pigs at his show since he was a member of Pink Floyd, starting back in 1977. Here’s a couple of images:

link to image.guardian.co.uk

link to 3.bp.blogspot.com

On one there is an obvious US emblem, with the Uncle Sam figure. Another has the Soviet Union symbols on it. Since the Star of David has been appropriated by the government of Israel, there’s no reason why putting its symbols on a pig is any different than putting US or Russian symbols on a similar pig. If you object to the misuse of a religious symbol, then take it up with the Israeli government.

link to en.wikipedia.org

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tree says:
August 29, 2013 at 7:20 pm
The pig launched into the Belgium arena depicted the Star of David juxtaposed with symbols of organizations and regimes from around the world.
…..
Waters — a seven-year supporter of the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS), a non-violent movement that opposes Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and fights for Palestinian human rights — defended the pig in an open letter on his Facebook page.

“Like it or not, the Star of David represents Israel and its policies and is legitimately subject to any and all forms of non violent protest,” Waters wrote. “To peacefully protest against Israel’s racist domestic and foreign policies is NOT ANTI-SEMITIC.”

Waters also noted that this particular pig has appeared at approximately 193 shows since 2010, and the concertgoer Asif’s complaint is “the first.”

link to sfgate.com

I wouldn’t be surprised if the protest was encouraged by the Israeli government as an attempt to stifle the growing BDS movement.

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Cliff says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:20 pm
get a life yrn, you are such a corny loser

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Justpassingby says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:05 pm
He could have gone harder and adressing antisemitism is not necesseary anyone knows Rogers arent so why spend time on the slander by abe?

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hophmi says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:17 pm
“The B.D.S. movement is open to a two State solution, the whole point of B.D.S. is to encourage any peaceful solution that guarantees equal rights to all the people regardless of race or religion. ”

Well, that’s nice. If only it were actually true.

“The charter you quote is out of date.”

If only THAT were true.

“On December 1st 2010 Hamas Leader Ismail Haniyeh stated, “ We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees” ”

Oh, well, that settles it. In 2008, Bibi Netanyahu said he was open to negotiation. Is Roger Waters prepared to quote him in a letter?

“I am also passionately pro dialogue”

Not if you belong to the BDS, you aren’t.

“You speak of a Two State Solution, and although I know you don’t represent the Israeli Government, you do represent a point of view, and I should be most interested to hear what you think such a solution would look like, both geographically and demographically. ”

See http://www.ispeacepossible.com

“These are secret talks so we don’t know who is having them or on behalf of whom, but, should those talks bare fruit and a just and equitable peace break out, then it will be time to tear down the walls and picket lines, end the boycotts, clamber disheveled over the barricades and join the people in the streets.”

It’s a shame we can’t get such a declaration from the BDS movement.

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Cliff says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:09 pm
LOL

translating hoppy’s irrelevant nonsense:

blah blah blah blah antisemite blah blah holocaust blah blah peace blah blah bds bad

—-

Peace is not possible. Some website telling you so doesn’t change the facts on the ground and Jewish colonialism.

But keep blaming Palestinian slaves under the boot of Jewish nationalism you hopeless indoctrinated incompetent.

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john_manyjars says:
August 30, 2013 at 7:41 am
hophmi says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:17 pm
“The B.D.S. movement is open to a two State solution, the whole point of B.D.S. is to encourage any peaceful solution that guarantees equal rights to all the people regardless of race or religion. ”

Well, that’s nice. If only it were actually true.

-ZZZZZZZ

In other words, you have NOTHING to refute Waters’ arguments.

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Danny_123 says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:19 pm
Roger Waters was a profound musical poet in the 70′s. Today he uses his skills to speak for those who would be silenced by the likes of Foxman and his defamation league. Foxman is so out of his element, that I doubt he even realizes it.

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LanceThruster says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:29 pm
Masterful!

Kicking around on a piece of ground
In your home town
Waiting for someone or something
To show you the way

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Citizen says:
August 29, 2013 at 5:51 pm
Here’s a typical boilerplate response to Waters by an Australian who moved to Israel:
link to israellycool.com

He says Waters “protests too much” a la Shakespeare’s script. His evidence is that HAMAS has not changed its charter language, no matter what its reps say now.

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Citizen says:
August 29, 2013 at 5:57 pm
Folks have been wondering when Abe Foxman will retire since at least 2007–he’s really embarrassing to many Jewish people in his demonstrated bias: link to muzzlewatch.com

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RoHa says:
August 29, 2013 at 10:00 pm
If he retired he could set up a school to give whining lessons.

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Scott says:
August 29, 2013 at 8:25 pm
Roger is history’s greatest NGLA member.

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ErsatzYisrael says:
August 29, 2013 at 9:31 pm
hophmi says:
August 29, 2013 at 4:17 pm

“Oh, well, that settles it. In 2008, Bibi Netanyahu said he was open to negotiation. Is Roger Waters prepared to quote him in a letter?”

You must still believe in the tooth fairy.

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DICKERSON3870 says:
August 29, 2013 at 10:12 pm
RE: “You [the ADL] are right in saying that I have attacked The Israeli Governments’ policies in Gaza, the West Bank, and in Israel itself.” ~ Roger Waters to the ADL

MY COMMENT: Unfortunately, attacking “The Israeli Governments’ policies in Gaza, the West Bank, and in Israel itself” is all that is required for the ADL* (and/or AIPAC*) to smear/defame a person as an anti-Semite!

* SEE – “The AIPAC Politics of Smear: The Secret Section in Israel’s U.S. Lobby That Stifles American Debate”, By Gregory D. Slabodkin, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, July 1992, pages 7-8, 89-91
[EXCERPTS] During the reign of terror that Senator Joseph McCarthy unleashed in the 1950s, when the reputations and lives of many loyal Americans were ruined by false charges of “communism” and “treason,” American Jewry was overwhelmingly opposed to the Wisconsin senator and his blackmail by blacklists. According to the Gallup polls of the time, the percentage of U.S. Jews who opposed McCarthy’s smear tactics was twice that of the rest of the population. Many Jewish organizations passed resolutions condemning McCarthy’s ruthless character assassination.
Today, however, such national Jewish organizations as the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith (ADL) and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) are using the same tactics to stifle open debate of U.S. policy in the Middle East.
• Secretly Circulated Lists
To conduct this “neo-McCarthyism,” AIPAC operates a covert section within its research department that monitors and keeps files on politicians, journalists, academics, Arab-American activists, Jewish liberals, and others it labels “anti-Israel.” AIPAC selects information from these files and secretly circulates lists of the “guilty,” together with their alleged political misdeeds, buttressed by their statements, often totally out of context.
Just as McCarthy’s permanent investigations subcommittee labeled criticism of specific policies of the U.S. government as “anti-American,” or “pro-Soviet,” AIPAC labels criticism of Israeli government policies “anti-Israel,” “pro-Arab” or “pro-PLO.” Still worse is the pro-Israel lobby’s redefinition of “anti-Semitism” to include any such criticism of Israel or its actions. . .
. . . AIPAC’s “opposition research” department traces its roots to I.L. (Sy) Kenen, who founded AIPAC in 1954. As editor of AIPAC’s weekly Near East Report, he often attacked critics of Israel in his aptly titled column, “The Monitor.” Besides monitoring, analyzing, and responding to “anti-Israel” comment and activities in the United States, Kenen also kept files on AIPAC’s “enemies.” In his final year AIPAC began to expand its intelligence-gathering operations.
Kenen’s memoirs, “Israel’s Defense Line: Her Friends and Foes in Washington”, record how AIPAC pooled resources in 1974 with the American Jewish Committee and other national Jewish organizations to create a “truth squad.” Its purpose was to combat “pro-Arab propaganda” and the emerging “Arab lobby,” which Kenen believed to be a growing threat to the U.S.-Israel relationship.
“While vigorously defending Israel’s perceived interests, the organizations that created the truth squad turned into a kind of Jewish thought police,” journalist Robert I. Friedman explains. “Investigators—sometimes overzealous Jewish college students, sometimes sources with access to U.S. intelligence agencies—were used to ferret out critics of Israel, Jew or gentile, wherever they might be. At ADL and AIPAC, files were opened on journalists, politicians, scholars and community activists. Their speeches and writings were monitored, as were, in some cases, their other professional activities. And they were often smeared with charges of anti-Semitism or with the pernicious label of self-hating Jew. The intention was to stifle debate on the Middle East within the Jewish community, the media and academia, for fear that criticism of any kind would weaken the Jewish state.”
When Kenen stepped down as executive director of AIPAC in December 1974, the task of monitoring Israel’s “enemies” was left to the department of research and information at AIPAC, where it has remained ever since. . .
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to wrmea.org

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American says:
August 30, 2013 at 12:48 am
The NSA is anti semitic! It spied on Israel. Booga,booga.

link to timesofisrael.com

Post 9/11, US spied on Israel as a priority target’

Newly revealed information published by the Washington Post via whistle-blower Edward Snowden outlines US intelligence efforts
By Gavriel Fiske and AP

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john_manyjars says:
August 30, 2013 at 7:40 am
Excellent, cogent response to the hysterical feces-slinging of the Zio-hack and mouthpiece, Foxman.

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irishmoses says:
August 30, 2013 at 1:01 pm
Nobody has mentioned the video clip at the bottom of Roger Waters’ letter:

link to youtube.com

THIS IS A MUST SEE VIDEO! It was done by an Israeli and is centered around a trip to Auschwitz by a group of Israeli high schoolers. But it ranges far afield as he interviews Jews in Israel, Jews in the US, Abe Foxman, Norman Finkelstein, John Meirsheimer, to name only a few. It is powerful, moving, and often hilarious. It is long, an hour an a half, but well worth it. I was short of time so I jumped around a bit and skimmed through much of it. I’m going to sit down and watch it in its entirety tonight.

THIS IS A MUST SEE VIDEO. It is hilarious that Waters embedded it in his letter to Foxman as Foxman is probably the main person interviewed throughout the film. I actually think it would be deserving of a separate MW thread. It is very thought-provoking as it deals with two major issues, anti-Semitism and the Holocaust and how Israel, Jews in the US use and often manipulate these issues. It ends at sunset in Auschwitz looking through the barb wire. The director’s final refrain is he thinks all the emphasis on the past, as horrific as it has been, is holding Jews back and that they need to think more about the present and the future.

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Ellen says:
August 30, 2013 at 1:43 pm
It is a must see. And what is heartbreaking in a big way is how Israeli children are taught that “everyone hates them.” Talk about mind control! Those are Stockholm Syndrome methods. Abusive methods of Psychological control.

A few years ago there was a young man outside a train station here looking for directions. We helped him out and while waiting for the bus, asked him where he was from. He was a friendly and pleasant traveler, but then went quiet and hesitated. He said. “I come from where everyone hates us.”

Whoaaaa. what a bizzare thing to say, I thought. I said well, we don’t “hate” and surely not someone for the passport in their pocket. Then he said he was from Israel. After a welcome to this kind young man, I felt sorry for all that mental baggage imposed on him and his silly fear of his nationality. I wondered what kind of programing he is getting at home.

That movie by an Israeli explains it.



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