The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Apology to Tiglath

Re: Apology to Tiglath
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Thursday, September 23 2010, 23:41:43 (UTC)
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Arrow wrote:
>Then why are there so many Armenians scattered throughout all the middle east? They all just decided to come up with a genocide story and immigrate?

...why are there so many Russians scattered around Europe...was there a genocide in Moscow I missed? Why were there so many Europeans scattered around North America...was there yet another genocide that drove them out? Why did so many Spaniards move clear across a very wide and dangerous ocean...was there also a Holocaust in Madrid that passed us by?

...do you mean to say that the movement of people is most often caused by genocide?

..it seems to me you are all suffering from a case of the non-sciences...that is: you already hold a belief, and you look for whatever will confirm it. I have no prejudice one way or the other...I am perfectly willing to condemn Islam or anyone else for actual, real crimes. But I donīt have a NEED to do so...therefor I can look at the evidence and also use my unbiased reason and judgement....facts, not opinions, tell me that the Ottoman Empire was the one place on earth where Jews and Christians lived in péace with Muslims...Muslims who were in the majority. That never happened anywhere where Christians were in the majority with Muslims and Jews under their rule...this is historical fact, not opinion or fiction...I can refer you to numerous and real books by real historians not taxi driving engineers. People like you also claim that the Turks destroyed the evidence and that just because it does not exist is no proof that it didnīt happen...okay, except: you canīt ask someone to prove a negative...it canīt be done, also, in law, it is the accuserīs obligation to prove guilt, not the accused to prove innocence...

...but on top of all that, on top of the historical record, and common law, there is also reason...common sense...and my reason tells me that with the well documented, fair, treatment of Christians by Turks, and not just Christians but Jews too, two religious minorities they had centuries to get rid of or cleanse or murder or Turkify, if they wanted to...they didnīt. Why?

Why does their record instead show that they allowed full and free worship to both, even to creating the Millet system, something they certainly didnīt have to do....which allowed Christians and Jews to be governed and taxed by their own religious leaders...this is not a historical record, like the European Christian one towards Jews, that shows any hatred towards Christians or Jews....but even though genocide canīt be proven and has not been proven, still there is evidence of murders and forced marches etc. But I also ask why these things happened and through more reading and thinking I come to the inescapable conclusion that Christians in Turkey did SOMETHING to excite so much hostility so quickly...and I find that what did it was when the first Christian armies, those of Czarist, Orthodox Russia first attacked the Ottomans and Persians starting in the 17th century, gleefully murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims and stealing their possessions and lands and villages and, forcing THEM to march out with nothing....it was at this time, and every time after, and I mean EVERY time, that Christians first started working for and with invading Christians...killing and looting and stealing and raping and all the rest of it...itīs in the record, no one is making this up.

Christians caused the change in Turkish attitudes, as we can see by their own history, Turks had NONE of these hostile feelings towards their Christisn subjects before the first betrayals.

..and where do you get your facts from? Do you have a source or are these your own observations or what you have heard...most likely from others trying to make the case that this is some sort of evidence of genocide.

Let me ask you...how come so many Armenians are still in Turkey? Why are churches still open and functioning? And why donīt the Christians INSIDE Turkey make these complaints? It has become illegal in Turkey to claim a genocide occured 90 years ago and thatīs unfortunate, but what about now?...but I can understand the official position, though there are better ways to handle these thinsg...I think what the Turks are afraid of is not that someone will prove a genocide occured, but, from their past experience, these kinds of complaints have always been taken up by the West as a pretext to meddle in internal affairs or push some action contrary to the wishes of Muslim countries...Feisal had the same problem with the Marshimun in Iraq in the 20s...he simply would not SHUT UP about what Islam had ALWAYS done to Christians etc...he was trying to incite the sympathy of Christians in Europe...but what Iraq worried about was that the British would use this tired old excuse once again to enter the country on a mission to "save" Christians when no one, NO ONE has killed more Christians than have other Christians. And they did.
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>It's very difficult to find evidence...
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>You can also say a similar thing about the Holocaust. Although we have proof that atrocities had been committed, we do not have, however, unequivocal evidence that magnitude of those atrocities had approached six million persons.

...you mean four million would be more to your liking? The point with the Holocaust and that genocide, remembering that the word was invented in the 40s for THEIR specific crime, is not the number...but the "systematic and coordinated GOVERNMENT-ordered attempt to round up and destroy every single Jew they could lay their hands on". It was the "prior intent" and not any spontaneous outburst of mob-violence...this is what made it genocide, the methodical governmeent action...the large numbers made it a Holocaust, always with a capital "H" because there is only ONE such event in all of history...again, weīre not talking about hordes of cavalry or foot soldiers charging a village-..we arenīt talking about how many are killed but the forces BEHIND those killings...and for that there is all the hard evidence anyone needs that Hitler and his party,all Christians, planned and implemented and built special facilities for the systematic government run total destruction of anything and everything even partially Jewish.

That did not happen in the Ottoman Empire...mass murders, yes, but then so too did Christians murder innocent Muslims...human rights abuses, yes...but not genocide.

To date there has been no "smoking gun"..and I say again that the lack of one, by itself, is not what makes me believe there was no genocide...because nothing in the Turkīs prior realtionship to Christian subjects and citizens ever displayed this sort of thing...while Jewish history is bloody with 1500 years of Christiuan persecution and murders which all led up logically to the Holocaust and the invention of a new word in our vocabulary to describe the latest and most horriffic of all Christian crimes, to date.



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