The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Aprim does it again

Re: Aprim does it again
Posted by Rashad (Guest) - Saturday, March 24 2012, 6:30:38 (UTC)
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Rashad wrote:
>I was reading something by Albert Hourani who was a historian on the middle east(like John Joseph). While I was googling him, I come across something from Aprim in which he uses Hourani as a source but missed the big fucking point. Here is the entire thing and it's his continuous beef with Chaldeans:
>
>"Chaldeans or Catholic Assyrians !
>By Fred Aprim
>
>Assyria (northern Mesopotamia) was never inhabited by a race of people called ethnically Chaldeans. History books never hinted of any sort of link between the ancient Chaldeans, who lived predominantly in southern Mesopotamia; whose title meant those dealing with sooth saying, Astronomy and astrology, and the modern-day Chaldeans of the Mosul region in north of Iraq. The ancient Chaldeans did not settle in Assyria after the fall of Nineveh at the hands of the Medes and the Babylonians, as the latter were under the rule of the Chaldean kings at the time. On the contrary, history books tell us that the Medes took control of Assyria while the Chaldeans continued to rule southern Mesopotamia and extended their power later into the upper Euphrates in Syria and down to Palestine. In addition, there is no evidence whatsoever that a massive migration of a specific race of people called Chaldeans from southern Mesopotamia to Assyria ever took place. For more detailed info on this particular subject, please visit: The modern-day Chaldeans and their relation if any to ancient Chaldeans.

As if you read any real history books. What link is there between you and the ancient Assyrians? The only place you get your history lessons from is the Bible, as you just said Chaldean only meant "soothsayer" and then your priests and the amateurs such as yourself. It's hilarious how you tell readers to visit a particular place for more details on a subject which you are writing on. Why would I or anyone who wants to learn something go to an amateur?
>
>If there is any link between ancient Babylonians or Chaldeans and any modern people, then that link is represented in the Mandaeans (Subbiyeen). The Mandaeans still preserve many aspects of the ancient Babylonians and Chaldeans and continue to live mainly in mid and southern Iraq. For more detailed info on this specific subject, please visit: The Mandaeans: True descendent of ancient Babylonians and Chaldeans.

Where is your link between the ancient Assyrians and what did your ancestors know about them in 1553 or 1753? As for Babylonians, what about the Muslims in that region? They live in Babylon and claim the ancients as their ancestors as well, and the Mandeans don't say what you claim. This is you again fabricating history as you please and you can do that as an amateur but nobody but the few donkeys who read your "books" would actually follow you.
>
>Modern-day Chaldeans are simply Catholic Assyrians, or yet better put Catholic Nestorian Assyrians. The Nestorian Assyrians who followed Rome and became Catholics were given this title by the Vatican to distinguish them from the Nestorian Assyrians or members of the Church of the East. There is ton of evidence that attest to this simple fact published by educators, scholars, historians, theologists and others representing British, French, Americans, Arabs, Assyrians and others. These accounts came from various religious groups representing Moslems, Jewish, and different Christian denominations including Orthodox, Catholic, Presbyterian, and Church of the East members and others.

The modern Chaldeans are ex-Nestorians, not Assyrians. There was no Assyrians in 1551. They were Syriac speaking Nestorians who became Chaldean. It was only after they became Chaldean that you boys became Assyrians and that was few centuries later. same thing the Vatican did with the new converts was done by the British and the remaining Nestorians. You people became Chaldean first before the Assyrian name. You were Nestorians who spoke Syriac and you became Assyrian later, very recently actually. It was only in 1976 that your church even added the Assyrian name and it took for a Patriarch to be murdered before that happened. There is also a ton of evidence against you people, you wanna hear it? Again, where is your proof for your own claims?
>
>Here are 61 references (66 quotes) stating that the Chaldeans are simply Catholic Assyrians:
>
>1. (A) "The Near East in History: A 5000 Years Story" by Philip K. Hitti.
>
>“One tangible result [from the Capuchins activities] was the creation of the two Uniat communities: the Armenian Catholic Church, split from the Gregorian, and the Chaldean, split from the East Syrian Church or Nestorian.”

We already know about the Nestorian split, but what's that got to do with Assyrians? There was no such thing back then. You have missed the point again.
>
>1. (B) "The Near East in History: A 5000 Years Story" by Philip K. Hitti
>
>“Latin missionary work in Persia and Syria, among Nestorians, Armenians, and Jacobites naturally affected Christian Iraqis. As early as 1663 a Syrian Uniat Church was organized and later (1830) recognized by the Porte. Another Uniat community, the Chaldean, was established in 1552; its patriarch of Babylon chose Mosul for his residence.”

And your "Assyrian" nation was first established about a 150 years ago. Your point?
>
>2. "The Mandaeans" by Prof. Edmondo Lupieri." Today the term Chaldean means only the Syriac-speaking Christians, originally Nestorians, converted to Catholicism since the 16th century."

We know that, and Assyrian became the name of the remaining Nestorians, and it was done by the Euros as well.
>
>3. "The political Dictionary of Modern Middle East" by Agnes G. Korbani, University Press of America, 1995.
>
>“Assyrians: Remnants of the people of the ancient Mesopotamia, succeeding the Sumero-Akkadians and the Babylonians as one continuous civilization. They are among the first nations who accepted Christianity. They belong to one of the four churches: the Chaldean Uniat, the Syrian Orthodox Church, the Syrian Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East. Due to the ethnic-political conflict in the Middle East, they are better known by these ecclesiastical designation. The Assyrians use classical Syriac in their liturgies while the majority of them speak and write a modern dialect of this language. They constitute the third largest ethnic group in Iraq with their communities in Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, Russia and Armenia. Today they remain stateless and great numbers of them left their homeland and settled in Western Europe, the United States and Australia.”

This is not a historian writing but someone speaking from their arse and I can see that just by reading this. sounds like something one of you from Aina would write.
>
>4. “Minorities in the Middle East” by Mordechai Nisan.
>
>Here is this passage, the author speaks of Tall Kayf, the heart of the Catholic Assyrians, aka Chaldeans, but he calls them rightly Assyrians. “The Mosul massacres of 1959-1960 found the Assyrians, particularly in Tall Kayf, loyal to Kassem in his struggle against Nasserites insurrection. But the Ba’thist coup in 1963 forced many Christians to flee the North of Iraq.”

Okay? How does that prove you're what you claim?
>
>5. “Arabs and Christians? Christians in the Middle East” by Antonie Wessels.
>
>“In 1551, the Assyrian community refused to accept the appointment of Shim’un VII Denka as Patriarch of the Church of the East. They sent a monk, Youhanna Sulaqa, to Rome, where he was appointed Patriarch of Babylon and head of the first church in the Middle East to unite with Rome. While the name Assyrian refers to an ethnic identity, the name Chaldean refers to the (Catholic) ‘rite’. He later died as a martyr in Diyarbekr (Eastern Turkey) at the hands of the anti-Catholic community.

What Assyrian community in 1551? Oh, it's another amateur speaking. Got ya.
>
>In 1672 more than a century after the failure of Patriarch Sulaqa to effect the ‘return’ of the Nestorians, a separate Chaldean rite was organized.”

Yawns. I am getting bored of this.
>
>6. “Aqaliyat shimal al-‘Araq; bayna al-qanoon wa al-siyasa” (Northern Iraq Minorities; between Law and Politics) by Dr. Jameel Meekha Shi’yooka.
>
>“The Assyrians themselves are broken into Nestorians (not connected to Rome or the Catholic Church and are the minority) and are members of the Assyrian Church of the East, and besides the Nestorians there are the Chaldeans, a majority who came out from the Nestorians and are connected with the Catholic Church in Rome.” (a translation from Arabic)

I will skip this one if you don't mind because it's more of the same.
>
>7. “Asshur and the Land of Nimrod” by Hormuzd Rassam.
>
>“A difficulty now arose; the new converts styled themselves 'Sooraye' and 'Nestornaye' . The Romanists could not call them 'Catholic Syrians' or 'Syrian Catholics' for this appellation they had already given to their proselytes from the Jacobites, who also called themselves 'Syrians'. They could not term them 'Catholic Nestorians,' as Mr. Justin Perkins, the independent American missionary does, for this would involve a contradiction. What more natural, then, than that they should have applied to them the title of 'Chaldeans' to which they had some claims of nationality, in virtue of their Assyrian Descent.”

Yes, we know the Nestorians who joined Rome became Chaldeans, and the remaining Nestorians later became ASssyrians. It's the same game. You prove your claims, how about that?

>8. “The Eastern Christian Churches” by Ronald Roberson.
>
>“In 1552, when the new patriarch was elected, a group of Assyrian bishops refused to accept him and decided to seek union with Rome. They elected the reluctant abbot of a monastery, Yuhannan Sulaqa, as their own patriarch and sent him to Rome to arrange a union with the Catholic Church. In early 1553 Pope Julius III proclaimed him Patriarch Simon VIII “of the Chaldeans” and ordained him a bishop in St. Peter’s Basilica on April 9, 1553. The new Patriarch returned to his homeland in late 1553 and began to initiate a series of reforms. But opposition, led by the rival Assyrian Patriarch, was strong. Simon was soon captured by the pasha of Amadiya, tortured and executed in January 1555. Eventually Sulaqa’s group returned to the Assyrian Church of the East, but for over 200 years, there was much turmoil and changing of sides as the pro- and anti-Catholic parties struggled with one another. The situation finally stabilized on July 5, 1830, when Pope Pius VIII confirmed Metropolitan Youhanna (John) Hormizd as head of all Chaldean Catholics, with the title of Patriarch of Babylon of the Chaldeans, with his see in Mosul.”

Again, what Assyrian bishops in 1552?
>
>9. “The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church” by F. L. Cross and E. A. Livingstone.
>
>Chaldean Christians.
>
>“The convenient, if not very appropriate, title applied to that part of the Church of the East in communion with the see of Rome. They fall into two main groups, those of the Middle East (esp. Iraq), and those of Malabar [India]. As a result of dispute over succession within the Middle Eastern group, a separate line of Uniat Patriarchs came into existence in 1553, when Simeon Sulaqa was consecrated in Rome after submitting his profession of faith to Pope Julius III. Over the next three centuries, difficulties of communication gave rise to problems. The Sulaqa line (normally with the name Simeon) remained in communion with Rome until 1672, while members of the other line (with the name Elias) briefly entered communion with Rome on several occasions. In 1681 a new Uniat line of Patriarchs at Diyarbekr was inaugurated (with the name of Joseph), to last for well over a century. In 1830 affairs were regularized and the Uniat Patriarchate was again restored, now at Baghdad, with the title ‘of Babylon’. The customs and discipline of the Chaldeans have been partially assimilated to those of the Latin rite, and they follow the Gregorian calendar. Syriac liturgical tradition and languages are, however, retained. In the Middle East the Chaldeans are said to number c. 800,000. For the Indian group, see Malabar Christians.”

Boring.
>
>10. “Christianity in the Arab World” by El Hassan Bin Talal, Crown Prince of Jordan.
>
>“Attending the Council of Florence [1444], alongside the representative of the Jacobite patriarch Bahnam al-Hadli, were representatives of the Cyprus branch of the Nestorian Church, whose principle base was still in Iraq. These Nestorians, like the Jacobite patriarch, were persuaded to adopt the Roman Catholic confession and declare allgiance to Roman papacy, whereupon they came to be called the Chaldeans (as distinct from the Nestorians who refused to unite with Rome...

Yeah, yeah, and the remaining Nestorians became Assyrian later. Who has denied that the modern Chaldeans were Nestorians?
>
>“Subsequently, in 1551, Pope Julius III appointed a leading Catholic Nestorian, John Sulaka, as first patriach of his Uniate church. The successors of Sulaka later adopted the title of patriarch-catholicos of Babylon and the Chaldeans.”

Next.
>
>11. “The Middle East” A Physical, Social and Regional Geography by W. B. Fisher.
>
>“During periods of Moslem persecution, the autonomous Chistian sects of the east obtained support from the Church of Rome, but often at the price of obedience to Rome. Agreements were made whereby in return for recognition of the Pope as head of the community, local usages in doctrine and ritual were permitted to continue. Hence a number of eastern Christians broke away from sects such as the Jacobites or Nestorians, and formed what are known as the Uniate Churches--i.e. Communities with practices that differ widely from those of the main Roman Church, but which nevertheless accept the supremacy of the Pope. There have thus come into existence the Armenian Catholic, the Greek Catholic, the Syrian Catholic, the Coptic Catholic, and the Chaldean (Nestorian) Catholic Churches.”

Whatever dawg.
>
>12. ”The Catholic Encyclopedia” is very clear in defining Chaldeans as a Christian denomination of the Eastern Church, since it states;
>
>“Chaldeans: The name of former Nestorians now reunited with the Roman Church. Ethnologically they are divided into two groups [Turco-Persian and Indian], which must be treated apart, since in their vicissitudes one group differs considerably from the other. The first group is usually known as Chaldeans, the second as Christians of St. Thomas [also called the Syro-Malabar Church].”

Again, who has denied the modern Chaldean being formerly Nestorians, and how does this prove you're Assyrian?
>
>13. “History of Syria” by Prof. Philip Hitti, professor of Semitic literature at Princeton University.
>
>“Before the rise of Islam the Syrian Christian Church [Assyrian] had split into several communities. There was first the East Syrian Church or the Church of the East. This communion, established in the late second century, claims uninterrupted descent in its teachings, liturgy, consecration and tradition from the time the Edessene King Abgar allegedly wrote to Christ asking him to relieve him of an incurable disease and Christ promised to send him one of his disciples after his ascension. This is the church erroneously called Nestorian, after the Cilician Nestorius, whom it antedates by about two and a half centuries. The term Nestorian was applied to it at a late date by Roman Catholics to convey the stigma of heresy in contradistinction to those of its members who joined the Catholic Church as Uniats and received the name Chaldeans.”

Anyone who talks about Agbar can't be taken too serious unless you believe in flying pigs on mars or flying elephants.
>
>14. “The Assyrians and their Neighbors” by Rev. W. A. Wigram.
>
>A. “ Facts are too that the first time a Patriarch was associated with the word Chaldean was Mar Youhannan Hurmizd who was called by Pope Pius XIII in 1828 “Patriarch of Babil over the Chaldean Rite” in which the Church became definitely Papal in its obedience as one of the “ Uniate Churches” of the East. And the first to be called the “Chaldean Patriarch” was Mar Nicolas Zaia in 1844 and later the word Babil was added in 1847 when Mar Yousif Odo was consecrated as “Patriarch of Babil over the Chaldean.”

What about the rest of the Nestorians, and what did they become later?
>
>B. “ It is sometimes said that the Assyrian or Nestorian Christians have no connection with the Assyrians of antiquity, either by language or, so far as is known, by race. With all respect, the present writer ventures to differ altogether from that conclusion, and to assert his belief that the present Assyrian, Chaldean, or Nestorian does represent the ancient Assyrian stock, the subjects of Sargon and Sannacherib, so far as that very marked type survives at all. It is not a matter that is capable of documentary or monumental proof, from the nature of things, but certain facts that can be quoted seem to speak at least as loudly as do the words of any historian. Here are a people who, in the time of the beginning of the Christian era, are founded living in the lands where, in the year 600 B.C. the Assyrian stock had been established since history began; nor is there any record of any considerable immigration into, or emigration from, that land, in the interval.”

This guy was a propagandist, and the only thing he was and a Christian with hidden agendas.
>
>15.http://www.nineveh.com/mandaeans.html
>
>“All the inhabitants of the villages which are called Chaldean--TelKeif, Alqosh, Batnaya, Telesqoof, Karamles, Qaraqoush, and others—no connection with the Chaldeans of antiquity. Today’s Chaldean term is new to us, it came from the west, and from Rome precisely. You people, the inhabitants of the above mentioned villages are originally Assyrians, descendants of the Assyrians of antiquity. I, for example, was born in Mosul, and belong to the Chaldean Church, yet I am Assyrian and we all are Assyrians, being Syrians, Chaldeans, or Maronites.”

The Assyrian term is also new to us and came from the west. It came from the Euros, the same people who came up with Chaldeans.
>
>16. “The British Betrayal of the Assyrians” by Yousuf Malek (A member of the Chaldean Catholic Church).
>
>a. “The Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire as indicated in chapter 1, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Nestorian, Jacobite, Chaldean, Maronite and Syrian Catholic…” b. “The Chaldeans are of the same stock and family as the Assyrians, and their language is one. Like the Assyrians, they have preserved their mother-tongue. In the 16th century, the Roman Catholic Missions, which were at work in Syria, extended their missionary work to Basrah to the south of Iraq and then to the north, in the Mosul regions. To avoid the oppression of their rulers, the Chaldeans were forced by circumstances to seek the then powerful protection of Rome. Until a century ago, Rome was able to win over a considerable number of so-called Chaldeans.” c. “The term, “Chaldean”, was originally given to the members of the Church of the East, who lived in Iraq, first, for their geographical situation, and second, for the historical surroundings.”

Whatever. More of the same.
>
>17. “Reasons for the backwardness of the Assyrians” by Professor Ashur Yousuf, member of the Syrian Orthodox Church, published on October
> 20, 1914.
>
>“The hindrance to the development of the Assyrians was not so much the attacks from without as it was from within--the doctrinal and sectarian disputes and struggles like monophysitism and dyophsitism is a good example. These caused division, spiritually and nationally, among the people who quarreled among themselves even to the point of shedding blood. To this very day the Assyrians are still known by various names, such as Nestorians, Jacobites, Chaldeans…”

Next.
>
>18. “Iraq: A Country Study”, Edited by Helen Chapin Metz.
>
>“The Assyrians are considered to be the third largest ethnic minority in Iraq. Although official Iraqi statistics do not refer to them as an ethnic group, they are believed to represent about 133,000 persons, or less than 1 percent of the population. Descendants of ancient Mesopotamian peoples, they speak Aramaic. The Assyrians live mainly in the major cities and in the rural areas of northeastern Iraq, where they tend to be professionals and businessmen or independent farmers. They are Christians, belonging to one of four churches: the Chaldean (Uniate), the Nestorian, the Jacobite or Syrian Orthodox, and the Syrian Catholic.”

That's because they are not an ethnic group. they are Christian denomination.
>
>19. “Kanisat al-Mashriq fi Sahil Naynawa” (The Church of the East in the Plain of Nineveh) by Habib Hannona (A member of the Chaldean Catholic Church).
>
>The author mentioned that the title ‘Chaldean’ was given by the Pope, to those so called Nestorians of Cyprus who united with the Roman Church, in August 7th, 1445. He says that in April 21st, 1553, Sulaqa went to Rome and was elected ‘Patriarch of Babil over the Chaldeans’ and settled in Diar Bakir. The begining of the Catholic missionaries, says the author, started in 1725 in Nineveh Plain where almost all were Nestorians before this date.

Yes, yes, and the assyrian title was given by the Brits. Are we even now?
>
>20. “The Luck of Nineveh: In Search of the Lost Assyrian Empire”, by Arnold C. Brackman.
>
>A. "Among Mosul’s fifty thousand citizens were Moslems, Jews, and members of various Christian sects. The Christians were largely Jacobites, Papal Syrians, and Chaldeans, as Nestorian converts to Roman Catholicism were then called." B. "In September, accompanied by Rassam’s youngest brother Hormuzd, Layard left for the Tiyari Mountains, a district inhabited by the Nestorians or Chaldean Christians, who claimed to be the nearest descendants of the ancient Assyrians."

Next.

>21. “A History of the Arab Peoples”, by Albert Hourani.
>
>The well-known historian Albert Hourani spoke about the Christians during the 12th Centuery in Syria and northern Iraq. He clearly, and rightly so, attested to the fact that there were no such people known as Chaldeans and there was no Chaldean Church in north of Iraq during the 12th century. Because this title was applied by the Pope in the 15th century in Cyprus, in the 16th century in Diyar Bakir, and in 1830 in Mosul. He clearly mentioned Monophysites (Jacobites) and the Nestorians only. He stated, quote: “All over Syria and in northern Iraq Christians communities remained, although in a diminished form. Some, mainly in the cities, belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Church, but others were members of those other churches which have their origins in the controversies about the nature of Christ: the Syrian Orthodox or Monophysites, and the Nestorians.” unquote.

Ah, Albert, now That's someone worth reading but where does he say you are Assyrians? He states the obvious and it's nothing new. It is you who is confused here.
>
>22. “L’Orient Syrien” – issue 10 by J. M. Fiey.
>
>“The Christians who lived for generations in the land of Ashur, Kalah (Nimrud), and Nineveh have the right, more than anybody else, to be called Assyrians (Ashuriyeen) even though they are religiously known as Chaldeans and Sir-yan.”

Why? Based on what?
>
>23. “Mosul and its Minorities” by Harry Charles Luke.
>
>Mosul: The living city “You find here, dwelling among the Arabs and the Kurdish majorities, a great variety of Christians: Nestorians and Jacobites, with their corresponding Uniate branches, Chaldeans and Syrian Catholics.” Hence, Luke is telling us that Chaldeans were a branch of the Nestorians.

We know that already. More of the same. Again, what about your Assyrian claims?
>
>24. The late Fr. Dr. Yousif Habbi of the Chaldean Catholic Church / booklet consisting of (56) pages about the Rabban Hurmizd Monastery.
>
>From the Arabic section of the booklet we read under the sub-title ‘From the 16th century to 1808’: “In early 1552, bishops and the party opposing to Patriarch Shimun bar Mama, elected the Monk Youkhana Sulaqa Ballu, a superior of Rabban Hurmizd Monastery, a new patriarch for them, ending a tradition of hereditary succession of patriarchs from uncle to nephew and putting an end to the unrest present those days in the church . In Rome, Sulaqa was consecrated as the first patriarch over the Catholic followers of the Church of the East on February 20th, 1553, and they were called Chaldeans.”

Next.
>
>25. "Qaryaneh Jobyeh" published in 1906 by Mar Toma Audo (A Chaldean Catholic Church Bishop).
>
>On page 168 Mar Audo stated that after the fall of Babylon the Chaldeans mixed with the Persians, Elamites, and then with Arabs and they were assimilated COMPLETELY, in to these and other surrounding peoples. And he wrote in defence of the Assyrian name: "We in fact call ourselves generally "Surayeh" and not Suryayeh as some learned among us say. And it is abvious that "Suraya" is derived from "Atouraya" (Athouraya) as the "A" was dropped and the "T" (th) softened to an "S" as it has been customary in many places. For example, in Sina and Seert they pronounce the softened "T" as "S" and they say "meesa" instead of "meeta" (meetha) and "Alahosa" instead of "Alahota" (Alahotha) . Even in Urmia they say "Asas al-Bait" instead of "athath al-Bait" and "'Ausman" instead of "'Autman".

All that is bullshit.
>
>26. "The Modern History of the Kurds" by David McDowall.
>
>“Each Eastern Church in turn was rent by schism, as one part abandoned its independence in favor of union with a powerful sponsor. In the case of the new Chaldean, Armenian and Syrian Catholic Churches the impact was to be seen with the arrival of Catholic missionaries and teachers. The Protestants, not to be left out, soon set to work on the old churches, hoping to bring the communities to a 'better' understanding of the faith. The Chaldeans had walked out of the Nestorian Church as early as 1681 in order to enter into union with Rome. In Kurdistan a sharp and enduring conflict was unleashed between the old and new churches, with both playing hard for Ottoman approval. In 1716 the Orthodox (Melkite) Church, in 1740 the Armenian Church, and in 1781 the Syrian Orthodox (Jacobite) Church were rent by similar schisms."

Next.
>
>27. “The Nestorians and their Rituals” by Percy George Badger.
>
>The origin of the term ‘Chaldean’ as applied to a Christian sect, is correctly given in the following extract from Smith and Dwight’s ‘Researches in Armenia:’—“The present Chaldean Christians are of recent origin. It was in AD 1681, that the Nestorian Metropolitan of Diarbekir, having quarrelled with his patriarch, was first consecrated by the Pope patriarch of the Chaldeans. The sect was as new as the office, and created for it. Converts to papacy from the Nestorian and Jacobite churches were united in one body, and dignified by the name of the Chaldean Church. It means no more than Papal Syrians as we have in other parts Papal Armenians and Papal Greeks.”

Nestorians became Assyrians a few centuries later. There was no Assyrians in any of those years.
>
>28. “Aqaliyat fi sharq al-mutawasit” (Minorities East of the Mediterranean) by Fa’iz Sara.
>
>“Many vary on calling the Ashuriyeen (Assyrians), who are the most ancient peoples in the region and numerous titles are present including Athouriyeen (Atourayeh). Few refer to the Chaldeans or Nestorians, and at times al-Siryan too, as Ashuriyeen (Assyrians). All these names refer to one title Ashuriyeen (Assyrian) whose various titles were mentioned in historical and religious sources.
>
>29. “Fi Al-Asil wa Al-Fasil wa Mulahadat Ukhra” (Roots, Classifications, and Other Remarks) by Dr. Saadi Al-Malih.
>
>"Lets get back again to the names given to this nation of Al-Ashuriyon, Al-Siryan, Nestorians, Catholics, Christians and now Chaldeans, they all were fabricated to indicate this nation’s religious belief since groups of Assyrians switched their religious beliefs so many times."

There were no assyrians until later.
>
>30. "The Church of the East and the Church of England" by J. F. Coakley,
>
>“On the other side, the British government was now making strenuous efforts to satisfy the Permanent Mandates Commission of the League of Nations that Iraq was ready for self-government and minorities had nothing to fear. Briefed by the League of Nations Union, who shared the anxieties about minorities in Iraq, Lang in July put down a question in the House of Lords; to ask what provisions has been made in the Treaty between Great Britain and Iraq signed at Baghdad on June 30th for the security of the Assyrians, (Nestorian and Chaldean): and whether, in view of the serious reports as to the conditions in which the Assyrians are now living, the Government will take all necessary measures to secure the improvement of those conditions."
>
>31. “The Rage of Islam: An Account of the Massacre of Christians by the Turks in Persia” By Rev. Yonan H. Shahbaz
>
>“These Christians are also called Chaldeans, a designation which is applied to those of the Syrians who have been converted to the Roman Catholic belief.” The author stated that it was the Pope of Rome who gave them this title to distinguish the Catholics of the East from those of the West and also from the Nestorians. Rev. Shahbaz was an American citizen, baptized into the fellowship of Calvary Church, New York in September 26, 1892, and sent with his American wife to Persia to start a mission there.

Most of your sources are amateurs and not historians. That much is clear. And none of them prove you're Assyrian. Funny how thatw orks. You wanna prove Chaldeans aren't real and you only expose yourself. Thank you, aprim, Thank you.
>
>32. “The Discovery of an Assyrian Archaeologist” by David B. Perley (An Assyrian from the Syrian Orthodox Church), An analysis and review of Rassam's book 'Ashur and the land of Nimrud'.
>
>On Assyrian Sects Quote: In the realm of sects, his journeys [Rassam’s] revealed that the chief Christian sects or millets (subject nationalities) were Assyrians or Chaldean Nestorians, Chaldean Catholic, Syrian Jacobite, and Syrian Catholic, all of whom are of Assyrian origin … No matter how miscontrue the Assyrian malaise in the intolerable confusion of titles, as do most clerics who originated it, sustain, support, and cherish it now—the Chaldeans are Assyrians! Rassam’s pronouncements are on record. Exclaimed he (page 168): “What more natural, the, that they should have applied to them the title of Chaldean, to which they have some claim nationally, in virtue of their Assyrian descent?” unquote.

This is another amateur.
>
>33. “Assyrian-Chaldean Christians in Eastern Turkey and Iran” by Dr. J. C .J. Sanders
>
>Dr. Sanders made many journeys -on his own or together with students- to towns in Eastern Turkey such as Seert and Van, which are mentioned in this atlas, and from those to Syria via Nisibis, the town of Saint Ephrem the Syrian (d. 373). He also made occasional visits to Northern Iraq, to the towns of Alqosh and Amadiya near the border with Turkey. He often stayed at the Assyrian-catholic, or Chaldean, monastery of Rabban Hormizd, where he was kindly accommodated, sometimes in a cave.

And?
>
>34. The Assyrian Star / No. 5, September-October issue 1974.
>
>Mar Rafael BeDaweed, Patriarch of the Chaldean Catholic Church, said in an interview; " ... Personally, my family became Chaldean only some 100 years ago, my grandfather Daweed was a Nestorian priest, and the same is true with all the rest of us ..." " ... we need to differenciate between nationality and Church, between church and politics ... the Chaldean title for us does not mean ethnicity or nationality, historically there is not an Assyrian religion. True Assyrianism is an ethnicity and we all are Assyrians. We could be Assyrians ethnicly, but we are Chaldeans religiously. We can not have our Church associated with ethnicity or nationality."

His family became Catholic a 100 years before that, but how does that prove anything you claim about yourself? You are using an ethnic name for a church. You are full of it.
>
>35. “Kurds and Christians” by Rev. F. N. Heazell & Mrs. Margoliouth.
>
>“After leaving Amadiya I went to Alqosh and Mosul. The road lay through many Syrian [authors mean Assyrian] villages, which at one time owed allegiance to Mar Shimun; but now they have all, save a small number, joined the Latin Obedience and are known as Uniat Chladeans. In Alqosh I saw signs of a great educational work being done by the Dominicans; the Syrians [i.e. Assyrians] there seemed more prosperous and better cared for, though I heard not a few complaints from priests who were dissatisfied with their new ecclesiastical rulers, and much more so with the Liturgy which had been imposed on them.”

More amateurs.
>
>36. “THE NESTORIAN CHRISTIANS BEFORE THE LORD MAYOR”, an Article published in The London Times - 22 July 1869. “…A Nestorian deacon, already in this country [England], is receiving instruction, and is to proceed forth with to St. Augustine’s Canterbury; and the son of the Arch-priest of Mosul is also here having left the Romanized, or Chaldean section of the Assyrian Christians in order to join us and take part in our intended work…”

It was these peopel who created your Assyrian identity for you and it was from them you learned what you know today about the ancients. You knew nothing about them nor link yourselves to them in 1551.
>
>37. “To Mesopotamia And Kurdistan in Disguise” by E.B. Soane. A. The Mosul people, especially the Christians are very proud of their city and the antiquity of its surroundings. The Christians, regard themselves as "direct descendants of the great rulers of Assyria". B. "Chaldeans themselves are fully aware of the circumstances under which their forbears-and contemporaries became absorbed into the Roman Catholic Church, and "there are very few of them whom I ever heard express any sentiment upon the matter save deep regret, the more so that they know now that it was possible to have the much-prized education the Roman Catholic supply without the disintegration of their Church...

Yeah, this happened later.
>
>38. “Iraqi Assyrian Christians in London” by Dr. Madawi Al-Rasheed
>
>“…Assyrian nationalists regard the establishment of the Chaldean Church as an attempt to divide the Assyrian Church of the East and the Assyrian nation. One writer shows how this took place: In 1551 Mar Youkhana Solaka, the bishop of Mosul who did not agree with the hereditary succession in one family and wanted the Patriarch to be elected by a council of bishops (such elections were held before the 14th century), went to Rome and he was ordained by the Pope as the Patriarch of Babylon. This Mar Solaka tried to affiliate his group with the Roman Catholic Church. This is the first division perceived to have taken place among Assyrians. Another bishop Mar Yousip joined the Roman Catholic Church and was ordained in 1681 by the Pope as the ‘Chaldean Patriarch’. According to the same source, the ‘Patriarch of Babylon’ and the ‘Chaldean Patriarch’ were joined together under the title ‘the Patriarch of Chaldean over Babylon’. The author asserts: It is a historic fact that both names ‘Patriarch of Babylon’ and ‘Patriarch of Chaldean’ were branded by the Pope of Rome on a portion of the Assyrian Nation, seeking protection from the West, in an attempt to divide the ancient Assyrian Church.”

There was no assyrian church nor nationalists in those days. First there was Chaldeans and Assyrians came later. Those same assyrians, who came after chaldeans, decided to fabricate history and try to fool everyone. Not working.
>
>39. “The Patriarchs of the Church of the East from the Fifteenth to Eighteenth Centuries”, A study by H. L. MURRE-VAN DEN BERG.
>
>“… The patriarchs of Rabban Hormizd repeatedly tried to establish closer links with Rome, but only in the early nineteenth century did this lead to Roman Catholic recognition of its last patriarch, Yukhannan Hormizd. In 1830, after Yosep V Augustin Hindi of Diyarbakir had died, this Yukhannan Hormizd became the sole Uniate, i.e. Chaldean, patriarch 'of Babylon'. Here lies the origin of the present Chaldean patriarchate of Babylon, which now has its see in Baghdad…”

Next.

>40. “State and Provincial Society in the Ottoman Empire: Mosul, 1540-1834”, Cambridge University, 1997, p. 199, by Prof. Dina Rizk Khoury.
>
>“…the Nestorian Christians of Telkayf became Catholic Chaldeans …”
>
>41. “Ethnic and Religious Minorities:” And their influence on the political and social environment in Mosul, by Sa’ad Ibrahim Mohammad, Department of the General Security / Iraq

Old news, again, and the Nestorians who speak Syriac became Assyrians, and without any proof or links to ancients.
>
>“This term Chaldean, given to those who separated from the Nestorians, is a term given by Pope Eugene IV since there were historically Chaldeans who lived in Bet Nahrain. George Habib wrote in an article titled “Aramiya Siryaniya” in a magazine called “al-Turath al-Sha’abi” [The National Heritage] page 86 stating: “It is clear from this that those who call themselves Chaldeans are not the descendants of the Chaldeans of antiquity”.

The Assyrian term was given by the Brits.
>
>42. “The Christian Churches of the East. Vol. I: Churches in Communion with Rome”, by Donald Attwater.1948
>
>“By the middle of the 15th century the office of Nestorian katholikos had become hereditary in a family, passing from uncle to nephew, and on the succession of Simon VIII Denha in 1551 a disaffected party elected a rival, John Sulaka. Sulaka at once turned to the Franciscans for help; they sent him to Rome, where he made a profession of Catholic faith and was appointed by Pope Julius III to be patriarch of those of his rite who should follow his example. It was at this time that the name ‘Chaldean’ began to be used to distinguish such people, as to call them ‘Catholic Nestorians’ was obviously impossible. From now on there were two lines of patriarchs (or katholikoi), one Catholic, the other Nestorian.”

More skipping.
>
>43. ”Memoirs of Reverend Henry Lobdell”, Boston: American Tract Society, 1859, p. 211-212, by William Seymore Tyler.
>
>“Telkayf, for example, had been a Nestorian village and its inhabitants converted to Catholicism and became known as Chaldeans in the 18th century.”
>
>44. “Baghdad and Beyond", by Mora #####son
>
>In chapter XVII, Mora #####son mentioned about her encounter with the Chaldean priest in 'Aqra, and she wrote: "... Up to this moment I had not fully grasped what the Chaldean community consisted of, but now we discovered that there were a number of nuns in the house on top of us. Chaldean is the name given to those Assyrians who in 1552, led by one of their bishops, accepted the authority of Rome. They retain to a certain extent their own ecclesiastical constitutions and discipline, and have within their fold approximately 70% of the Assyrians."

No assyrians in 1552. This is another amateur like you.
>
>45. “Al-dhat al-Jareeha” (The Wounded Self), by Saleem Mattar, 1997, Beirut.
>
>Rivalry continued between the Nestorian and Jacobite sects for long centuries. Further complications were added after the 15th century with the activities of the western missionary as many of the Nestorians became Catholics and were called the Chaldean Church. [p. 473]
>
>46. ”al-Athouriyoon” (The Assyrians) in Arabic, by Abdul Majeed Haseeb al-Qaysi, London, 1999.
>
>“What weakened the Nestorians was the splitting of a part of them and joining the Catholic Church and those became known as Chaldean Catholics and the latter became in a better shape and more powerful than the Nestorians…” [p. 26]
>
>47. “A Compendious Syriac Dictionary”, by R. Payne Smith (edited by J. Payne Smith), First ed. 1903, Oxford. Reprint in 1998, Indiana.
>
>Chaldeanism means Astronomy and astrology. [p. 215] Chaldeans mean “ancient Syrians or Suryaye”. [p. 371]
>
>48. “L'eglise Chaldeenne: Autrefois et Aujour d'hui”, article by Catholic Priest Fr. Joseph Tfinkdji of Mardin. Published in Annuaire Pontifical Catholique in 1914.
>
>“…Surayeh was a historical title of the Chaldean Patriarchs…”
>
>49. “The Armenians, Assyrians and Kurds: Three Nations, One Fate?”, by Burchard Brentjes, California, 1997.
>
>“The adherents of the Antiochia church preferred the name ‘Syrian’, while the expression ‘Assyrian’ was limited now to the independent Nestorians. Since the late 19th century the Catholics of these Aramaean-speaking population call themselves ‘Chaldeans’.”

Suraya(Syrian) was what they all called themselves. Assyrian came later and was given to Nestorians by the Euros. The ex-Nestorians who became Catholic call themselves "Chaldeans" and the rest of Nestorians call themselves 'Assyrians" today.
>
>50. “Nestorian Missionary Enterprise: A Church on Fire”, by Rev. Dr. John Stewart, Great Britain, 1928, Reprinted in India in 1961, p. 314.
>
>“In the year AD 1551 they [Nestorians] split into two sections and a patriarch was elected by each of the different factions. One of these, unable to secure nomination by his fellow metropolitans, and in order to strengthen himself against his rival, went to Rome and received ordination at the hands of the Roman pontiff. He, however, did not join the Roman communion, but continued Nestorian with his residence at Mosul. When more than a hundred years later, at Diarbekir and elsewhere, some of the Nestorians went over to Rome, they were called Uniate or Chaldean Christians while the others continued to be known as Nestorians.”

Same thing repeated so many times. Next.
>
>51. “The Holy Spirit: Eastern Christian Traditions”, by Stanley M. Burgess, Massachusetts, Hendrickson Publishers Inc. 1989.
>
>“The Portuguese found an Assyrian Church in India in Malabar in the 16th century. It was reunited with Rome in 1599 and strongly Latinized. In 1830 a Catholic patriarch, called “Chaldean” was created in Mesopotamia, so there now are some Assyrians in union with Rome.”

They found a Nestorian church.
>
>52. Statement by Rev. William A. Shedd, D.D., of the American Presbyterian Mission in Urmia. [Editted by Ara Sarafian. “The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915-1916”, by James Bryce and Arnold Toynbee, Princeton, 2000, p. 137]
>
>“The Christian population in this region [Azerbaijan] is partly Armenian and partly Nestorian—or Syrian, as they call themselves… The Syrians or Nestorians include not only members of the old Nestorian Church but also Protestants, members of the Russian Orthodox Church, and Roman Catholics—or Chaldeans, as the last are generally called.”

Amateurs. Okay, I am skipping the rest because I am bored now.
>
>53. “Whither Christian Missions?”, by David B. Perley, J.S.D. Revised Edition 1946, USA.
>
>David Perley quotes F. W. Chardin’s English Review (London Conservative Monthly) October 1925, giving a classification of the Assyrian Oriental Christians in Mosul. Chardin, who was the British Assistance Political Officer in Mosul, stated that: “their [Assyrians’] Churches are divided into (a) The Old Syrian or Jacobite Church, a truly Oriental Church with no western connections: (b) The Syrian Catholic Church, the Uniat off-shoot of the foregoing: (c) The extremely Nestorian Church: (d) Its Uniat off-shoot, the Chaldean Church.”
>
>54. “The Syriac Fathers on Prayer and the Spiritual Life”, Introduced and Translated by Sebastian Brock, 1987, USA.
>
>Explaining various Syriac-speaking churches, Brock wrote: “The Eastern Rite Syrian Catholics and Chaldeans (the branches of the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Church of the East which have entered into communion with Rome), of course, also accept the Council of Chalcedon.”
>
>55. “East Syrian Rite”, by HENRY JENNER Transcribed by Joseph P. Thomas. In memory of Father Mathew Kanippillil. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV Copyright © 1912 by Robert Appleton Company Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight
>
>“The Syrian and Mesopotamian Catholics are now commonly called Chaldeans, or Syro-Chaldeans; the term Chaldean, which in Syriac generally meant magician or astrologer, denoted in Latin and other European languages Syrian nationality and the Syriac or Aramaic language (especially that form of the latter which is found in certain chapters of Daniel), until the Latin missionaries at Mosul in the seventeenth century adopted it to distinguish the Catholics of the East Syrian Rite from those of the West Syrian Rite, whom they call "Syrians", and from the Nestorians.”
>
>56. “The Baquba Refugee Camp”, by Brigadier-Gen. H. H. Austin, 1920, London.
>
>“It may not be out of place, therefore, to point out that there were exceeding few Roman Catholic Assyrians or “Chaldeans” as they are generally termed when they embraced Rome, among the refugees at Baquba. The very large majority of the Roman Catholic Assyrians in the Mosul vilayet did not join the mountaineers and fight against the Turks; and in consequence were permitted by the Turks to continue to dwell practically unmolested in their homes about Mosul.”
>
>57. “The Tragedy of the Assyrians”, by Lt.-Col. R. S. Stafford, 1933, London.
>
>“In the 16th century one of the rival candidates to the Patriarchate appealed to the Pope against another. One hundred years of hesitations and refusals to submit completely to Rome followed, and in 1680 Pope Innocent XI appointed the third Patriarchate, Mar Yusuf, who lived at Diarbekir. One hundred years later Mar Elia of the plains, the rival to Mar Shimun of the mountains, submitted to Rome. His followers came to be called Chaldean Uniates, and were recognized by the Turks as a ‘Millet’ in 1845.”
>
>58. “The Flickering Light of Asia”, by Rev. Joel E. Werda, (Evangelical Church) second edition 1990, Chicago, p. 199
>
>“The Assyrians are better known by their three Ecclesiastical designations representing the three main divisions: (A) The Nestorians … (B) The Chaldeans predominate in the province of Mosul, abounding also in the various locations in lower Mesopotamia down to the Persian gulf, with Mosul as their patriarchal See.” (C) The Jacobites …”
>
>59. “al-Ashoriyoon wa al-mas-ala al-Ashoriya fi al-‘Asir al-Hadeeth (The Assyrians and the Assyrian Question in the Modern Era)”, by K. B. Matviev, 1989, Damascus, p. 35.
>
>“On April 9, 1553, Sulaqa was consecrated patriarch of Babylon. The new church united with the Roman Catholic Church as it preserved its own private daily life….the followers of this church were called the Chaldean Assyrians, and Sulaqa returned to Beth Nahren hoping to unite all Assyrians under the Roman Catholic Church.” Translation from the Arabic provided by Fred Aprim.
>
>60. “Mosul Before Iraq”, by Sarah D. Shields, New York, 2000, p. 49.
>
>“The presence of European Christians in the city led to crisis between and within the local churches, which grew more troublesome as the century progressed. By 1901, the new Catholic Nestorians, or Chaldeans, seem to have had a recognized Patriarch, supported by the papal delegate in Mosul and often by the French consulate as well, who supplanted the Nestorian leader.”
>
>61. “Politics and Minorities In The Near East: Reasons for the Explosion” by Laurent Chabry & Annie Chabry, translated from the French by Dr. Thoqan Qarqoot, 1991. Under the sub-Chapter III “The Assyrians (Nestorians and Chaldeans)”, we read:
>
>We find the 550,000 Assyrians today mainly in north of Iraq (areas of Mosul, Arbil, Kirkuk) & Baghdad. These Assyrians are descendents of the Assyrians of pre-history who established in the early history a Semitic kingdom in Mesopotamia at the 21st century B.C. The Assyrians are a unique race with a unique national Christian religion and divided today into two parts; The Nestorians, not united with Rome, under "the Assyrian Church of the East", and the Chaldeans, split from the Nestorians, united with Rome, and therefore Catholic, since 1553 and under "The Chaldean Catholic Church".
>
>I only hope that the above overwhelming references would finally convince those who refuse to accept the fact about what the term Chaldean really meant … Catholic Assyrians, simple."

Sorry, aprim, it didn't convince and it's not for a fact that you are Assyrians. Even the referenced didn't actually help you out and one wonders if you even read them. None of them prove you are Assyrians nor that the modern Chaldeans are assyrians. We already know the history of the church. There was a split between Nestorians and one group became known as Chaldeans. The remaining Nesdtorians(you people) became known as Assyrians later. You didn't convince me and Chaldeans certainly don't listen to you. You will never be able to convince Chaldeans as a whole to believe they are Assyrians and you will never be able to convince the world that you're assyrians. I enjoy chasing you and beating you so keep it going, please.



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