The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> Re: Sam Harris

Re: Sam Harris
Posted by Rashad (Guest) - Monday, January 3 2011, 2:49:18 (UTC)
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I found this in the Huffington post web site where Sam Harris is talking about Islam and blames it for violence committed by some Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. I will quote some of the things he says and refute them here for the time being.

"Anyone familiar with my work knows that I am extremely critical of all religious faiths. I have argued elsewhere that the ascendancy of Christian conservatism in American politics should terrify and embarrass us. And yet, there are gradations to the evil that is done in name of God, and these gradations must be honestly observed. So let us now make sense of the impossible by acknowledging the obvious: there is a direct link between the doctrine of Islam and Muslim terrorism. Acknowledging this link remains especially taboo among political liberals. While liberals are leery of religious fundamentalism in general, they consistently imagine that all religions at their core teach the same thing and teach it equally well. This is one of the many delusions borne of political correctness. Rather than continue to squander precious time, energy, and good will by denying the role that Islam now plays in perpetuating Muslim violence, we should urge Muslim communities in the West to reform the ideology of their religion. This will not be easy, as the Koran and hadith offer precious little basis for a Muslim Enlightenment, but it is necessary."

Can you perhaps provide some evidence for your claim that there is a ling between Islamic doctrine and Muslim violence? Where does the Quran instruct "kill innocent people" and "put everyone to the sword" or anything similar to it? The Quran nor the hadiths have such instructions at all but there are many places throughout the texts where it says that people are free to believe and reject faith as they please because god could make all mankind have faith but doesn't. The Quran even makes clear that faith is something that comes from god and not something a person can turn on with a like a light switch. I can speak from experience because I remember when I would see Muslims not praying or doing what they supposed to and would say they have no faith. Muslims would always remind me that it is Allah who gives faith and takes it away as he pleases. It is seen as a mercy from god in Islam and one can't be killed for not having or believing in Islam. It's very simple if one does a little research on Islam. I mean let's face it; I am positive that the millions of Muslim scholars know Islam much better than the "experts" on FOX who tell us that Islam teaches otherwise.

"While the other major world religions have been fertile sources of intolerance, it is clear that the doctrine of Islam poses unique problems for the emergence of a global civilization. The world, from the point of view of Islam, is divided into the “House of Islam” and the “House of War,” and this latter designation should indicate how Muslims believe their differences with those who do not share their faith will be ultimately resolved. While there are undoubtedly some moderate Muslims who have decided to overlook the irrescindable militancy of their religion, Islam is undeniably a religion of conquest. The only future devout Muslims can envisage—as Muslims—is one in which all infidels have been converted to Islam, politically subjugated, or killed. The tenets of Islam simply do not admit of anything but a temporary sharing of power with the “enemies of God.” Devout Muslims can have no doubt about the reality of Paradise or about the efficacy of martyrdom as a means of getting there. Nor can they question the wisdom and reasonableness of killing people for what amount to theological grievances. In Islam, it is the moderate who is left to split hairs, because the basic thrust of the doctrine is undeniable: convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers; kill apostates; and conquer the world."

First of all, this fool sounds like a Fred Aprim, and this is a genius? Please someone help this dude because I am about to smoke him away. How does Islam pose a problem to global civilization when it gave birth to the first global community? Islam brought people of different continents together and various people lived within the empire. I am sad that I, as an amateur, must say this to a University degree holder and a doctor on top of it. For the sake of shit, I smoke weed, I am considered a junky and even a thug to this guy and I am schooling him? Who have Muslims attacked recently and who did they attack previously? The Persians, Byzantium, etc? If Muslims had not defeated them, what would have happened to them? So what only Muslims go to war now? What did Muslims do to the lands they conquered? Did they put everyone to the sword, forcefully convert or kill all who rejected Islam? I am not asking a high school drop out but to someone who is educated as this guy is. Where is your proof that Islam gives those options to non-Muslims and all must be converted?

I am now no longer speculating this guy is racist and a bigot even though he won't admit it. Did Hitler say he was racist or does the KKK even claim to be racist? Of course not because they are all doing the "right" thing.

"It is not enough for moderate Muslims to say “not in our name.” They must now police their own communities. They must offer unreserved assistance to western governments in locating the extremists in their midst. They must tolerate, advocate, and even practice ethnic profiling. It is simply a fact that the greatest predictor of terrorist behavior anywhere in the world (with the exception of the island Sri Lanka) is whether or not a person believes that Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his prophet. Moderate Muslims themselves must acknowledge this fact without equivocation. The time for political correctness and multi-cultural shibboleths has long passed. Moderate Muslims must accept and practice open criticism of their religion. We are now in the 21st century: all books, including the Koran, should be fair game for flushing down the toilet without fear of violent reprisal. If you disagree, you are not a religious moderate, and you are on a collision course with modernity."

Are you fucking kidding me man? Moderate Muslims assist western governments who are terrorizing their homelands? The same western governments who install dictators in the Muslim world? It wasn't Muslims that brought Saddam Hussein, khoumeini, etc but the U.S and they are supposedly helping people? Let me guess the Taliban or the regime in Iran represent the 1,7 billion Muslims around the world? The biggest names of Islam as far as scholars are concerned have all refuted Taliban teachings so let's not be ridiculous. Has this person ever read a scholarly book on Islam? Not the kinds written by amateurs and company CEO'S like this individual is but by real historians? I doubt it.

He mentions Sri Lanka but ignores the fact that they are the leaders of suicide bombings and the most "radical" Muslim countries(Iran,Sudan) have none. Explain this fact before you get an answer to your fact which is in reality your own opinion and bigoted view. Explain this one to me and then I will talk about your "fact".

"The war in Iraq, while it may be exacerbating the conflict between Islam and the West, is a red herring. However mixed or misguided American intentions were in launching this war, civilized human beings are now attempting, at considerable cost to themselves, to improve life for the Iraqi people. The terrible truth about our predicament in Iraq is that even if we had invaded with no other purpose than to remove Saddam Hussein from power and make Iraq a paradise on earth, we could still expect tomorrow’s paper to reveal that another jihadi has blown himself up for the sake of killing scores of innocent men, women, and children. The outrage that Muslims feel over U.S. and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns. Devout Muslims consider it a sacrilege for infidels to depose a Muslim tyrant and occupy Muslim lands—no matter how well intentioned the infidels or malevolent the tyrant. Because of what they believe about God and the afterlife and the divine provenance of the Koran, devout Muslims tend to reflexively side with other Muslims, no matter how sociopathic their behavior. This is solidarity born of religious delusion, and it must end—or a genuine clash of civilizations will be unavoidable."

Actually, the Iraq war was an organized thing and every American now knows it was based on lies. The sanctions murdered over 1,5 million people and this current war has killed at least another 600,000 Iraqi civilians and not to mention how many have fled. As far as your suicide bullshit. You may speak on Pakistan but can never teach me about Iraq because this is my real home. I am an Iraqi and I know my people very well. Suicide bombings were unheard of in Iraq and any type of terrorism was almost unheard of. Iraq is a very multicultural nation and different religions have always existed in peace and harmony. There is no proof that Muslims are doing the things our media tells us. Just as you say religious books are sill, and they are, so is the media and those who claim these things.

Saddam was brought by the U.S so it wasn't a favor to murder millions in order to get one man who was a puppet anyway. Question, why weren't there any "suicide bombings" in Iraq prior to this war? Who the real bombers now? Even if this was true and there are real suicide bombers killing innocent Iraqi children, the U.S has murdered over a million innocent civilians in Iraq with sanctions and damn near another million since this war began. Two wrongs don't make it right but who is doing the bigger wrong here? The first wrong is responsible for far more than the second wrong. in fact, the second wrong is mere propaganda anyway. It is no longer a secret that the Gulf of ton Kin was totally hoaxed so why should I believe that "suicide bombers" are responsible for the daily bombings in Iraq? Islam has nothing to do with suicide bombings nor any kind of bombings.

"It is time we admitted that we are not at war with “terrorism”; we are at war with precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran. This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with millions more than have any direct affiliation with Al Qaeda. Every person living in a western democracy should read the Koran and discover the relentlessness with which non-Muslims are vilified in its pages. The idea that Islam is a “peaceful religion hijacked by extremists” is a dangerous fantasy—and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for moderate Muslims to indulge."

Well you are admitting that you are at war with Muslims because of what they believe. The problem here is that you are trying to tell us what Muslims believe and what Islam teaches. I am glad you are encouraging westerners to read Quran but would like to remind you that studying Islam has brought many into Islam lately, and I am talking in the west. I may be a rare apostate but i can assure that more come in than the few like me who lose faith. Every human is different and not everyone will agree on everything but I do know that Muslims are very tolerant people and Islam is unique because it allows one to defend himself. There is nothing in Islam that prevents one from doing good things nor from making money, living, enjoying etc. Islam is not like Christianity where it renounces everything and teaches this world is "evil". Sure, Islam does teach paradise etc but it is only by the mercy of god that one gets there and Muslims do not spent billions nor do anything to prepare the end of this world.

Muslims go to school work, marry, have parties, watch soccer, eat chicken wings and enjoy this life just as anyone else would. Of course your version of fun may differ from theirs but they love life as well. So this is your twisted view on Islam and not what Muslims believe. Al Qaeda, Saddam, Iranian regime, etc were all U.S inventions and not Islam's. Muslims showed much tolerance when they conquered lands and many historians have written on that. I trust Professor John Esposito, who is a historian on Islam more than Bill Maher or Christopher Hitchens who are amateurs. Ever Heard of Historians such as Thomas W Arnold, William Mccneil or the many others? If not, they have a different story to tell.

I don't even consider this guy so intelligent because he don't seem so learned on Islam. His view of Islam is no different from a racist redneck who hates Black people yet knows nothing of him. This Jew forgets that it was Christians who have committed genocides against Jews and not Muslims. Muslims have no genocides on their hands but have been victims of such. I fear the west more than Muslims in caves whom our own invented. Islam in history has been more tolerant and shown that different religions could exist and prosper together. Sure, things have changed today as Muslims are living in a dark age but no doubt that Islam was once a hot thing in the past, and to those who adhere to it or embrace it, it's still a hot thing. I am done with this joke for now, I need a cigarette. Be back later.



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