The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

=> finally...a response

finally...a response
Posted by pancho (Moderator) - Wednesday, April 25 2012, 3:52:00 (UTC)
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:Wow you're really into this...

...that's an odd observation from the person who edits this page. Should I say the same of you?

I haven't actually read all what you've written but I see where you're going there.
:First of all my criticism was of John Joseph's poor command of Classical Syriac,

...you called him an amateur. I have studied English at least as much as you have studied Syriac, and I know what the word amateur means. It means someone who has not professional standing in a field, And by professional is meant not something “you study a lot” but something you studied under supervision of recognized experts in the field, which Dr. Joseph has done and you, as far as you've indicated, have not. Not even in Syriac, which you admit you “studied a lot”, but by yourself and perhaps with others, but not as a professional. I would have thought that here, of all places, professional standing would matter. I assure you no one can write for a real encyclopedia filling it with things “he has studied a lot”. It takes considerably more than that.

..also you have done what all enlightened amateurs do; you have selected those “mistakes” you can identify, and ignored the core of the matter, which is that there are no lineal descendants of the Assyrians, or Chaldeans anywhere and haven't been for centuries. That is at the heart of his research and so far you haven't addressed that.


I may not have an academic degree in Syriac but I've studied it since I was 10 so I can safely claim that my knowledge of it is superior to his, especially when he cannot recognise a Yod from a Nun.

...I'm afraid you couldn't do that anywhere but here. You haven't done the research he's done either, you haven't been mentored by recognized experts in that field, you haven't earned an advanced degree, or any degree that you have shared with us, and yet you seem perfectly comfortable calling those who have, amateurs and setting aside their research as if your study of Syriac also gave you the knowledge to refute what two prestigious publishing houses have seen fit to publish, under their imprint. Does that count for nothing here? Only that you say you have found a Yod and a Nun done wrong, you say.

Another flaw in his views is his claim that the Syrians never associated themselves with the ancient Assyrians before the coming of the European. Just take a look at local legends and hagiographies that very often feature "Assyrian kings" whom conversion to Christianity was followed by the mass conversion of their peoples, i.e. the Syrians. (read [[Mar Behnam]], [[Mar Qardagh]], etc)

...no you didn't read much. Dr Joseph deals with people who claim to be descended from ancient heroes, it's common in the middle east..and he dealt specifically with Mar Qardagh, and he also quoted Cook and Crone whose book “Haggarism” is misquoted by nationalists...plus which he included a letter sent to him by Patricia Cook in which she explains quite clearly that Qradagh is a LEGEND, a myth...you can't seriously be putting up legends against scholarly research...can you? Here is the quote, perhaps you will read it this time and tell me what you think....



In a footnote;

“…See also Hagarism , p. 190, n. 71, where, in accordance with their methodology, authors Crone and Cook accept Qardaghs’s descendance from Assyrian kings as a believed fact by HIS (emphasis mine) contemporaries, making Hagarism a favorite source book of the modern Assyrian writers. In a letter to the author, dated June 11, 1997, Patricia Crone wrote that she and Cook ‘do not argue that the Nestorians of pre-Islamic Iraq saw themselves as Assyrians or that this is what they called themselves. They called themselves Suryane (Syrians, mine), which had no greater connotation of Assyrian in their usage than it did in anyone else's…We take it for granted that they got the modern Assyrian label from the West and proceeded to reinvent themselves…Of course the Nestorians were Arameans (Syrian/Suryane, mine).” p 27

..and here is Dr Joseph on the Mar Qardagh and all such legends...

“It is not surprising that ‘in the land of the Assyrians’ one encounters an occasional legend that traces the ancestry of an individual or group to an ancient hero. This writer has heard Persians on the streets of Kermanshah begging and claiming that they were the lineal descendants of Imam Husayn, grandson of the Prophet Muhammad, who lived over 1,300 years before them. Michael G. Morony speaks of villagers of Aramaic descent who, assimilated with the Persians, claimed to be of Royal Persian descent, ‘form Kisra, son of Qubadh’. The story of Mar Qardagh, himself a semi-legendary figure, is such a legend; it traces the ancestry of his father to the family of Nimrud and that of his mother to the family of Sennacherib (705-681), a geneology that harks back over a thousand years.” p 27

...I hope you read these and comment further.


:I still can't understand why are you dismissive of a renowned expert on Persian history (Freye)?

..Because he is an expert in ancient PERSIAN history...and you ask me that after you dismiss a man with an advanced degree and published books on THIS subject? Frye has his field of expertise, and it is not modern Assyrian existence, or even ancient Assyria. You cannot lift what pleases you from wherever...if you had studied for an advanced degree you would know that. It is a rigorous process , with mentors over your shoulder all the way, and you don't just read what you like, or what agrees with your beliefs, you study ALL SIDES of an issue, all research...I wouldn't think of disputing with Frye in his area of expertise...I wonder why you find it so easy to dismiss Dr Joseph without even reading him.

He did after all discuss the role of Christianity in Persia, which was almost exclusively a Syrian phenomenon, in lengthy details in many of his works.

..I thought we were to keep religion out of this? But, very well..what has that got to do with anything? Who is discussing Christianity? The topic is modern Assyrian existence, but since you brought it up...can a Muslim be an Assyrian too?

Parpola is THE expert of ancient Assyrian history,

...he is one of them, hardly the best in the field, but let that go, I have no argument with his expertise.

his views on the continuity of ancient Assyrians are very relevant to the subject.

...they may be, but they are his “views”, not his area of expertise. It is a hobby with him, it is a pet project. I met him at Assyrian conventions where he was brought, expenses paid, to seek donations for his Melammu project...again, he has no standing at all in the field of modern Middle Eastern history with a specialty in the existence of modern Assyrians, as has Dr Joseph. You would not present an expert on the American Civil War to give factual views on the Franco Prussian War...he may have all the interest in the world, but his writings and opinions remain just that: his opinion and not accepted fact.

Another supportive voice comes from Semitists such as [[Geoffrey Khan]] who showed that Assyrian Akkadian is still preserved in some [[Northeastern Neo-Aramaic|NENA]] dialects
ia

...again, these people have no professional standing in this subject. We are not discussing semantics...this page asserts that Assyrians still survive, with no proof whatsoever from historians at all, it is a question of history. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to “seek support”, it is to give factual knowledge....Dr Joseph has produced factual knowledge, why will you not admit it?

..I find it curious that you bring an expert in ancient Persia, an expert in ancient Assyria, a semanticist but refuse to discuss or even acknowledge the achievements of the one, actual, published historian on THIS subject...except to find minor faults, which change nothing about his major research.

..as long as we are introducing “support, let me give you some from his book...

…Also in the 18th century, the British historian Edward Gibbon, aware of the confusion of names, wrote that the Nestorians, ‘Under the name of Chaldeans or Assyrians, are confounded with the most learned or the most powerful nation in Eastern antiquity.” p 23

..surely you've heard of Edward Gibbon...what do you say to his comment? He wrote the classic “Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire”, among other works and is rightly recognized as a scholar in his field. At least he is an historian...



.[http://www.aina.org/articles/rothbotmal.pdf] (BTW if you're Assyrian as you claim you should be able to understand [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zEILYaWTF4 this one] as well)

...as I claim? As I claim? Don't tell me that you're going to imply I must be an “enemy” for holding such views?

:My understanding is that the Assyria/Syria connection have been definitely confirmed the last decade after the discovery of the [[Çineköy inscription]]. I lately come across an article in a [http://www.ankawa.com/forum/index.php/topic,6554.msg16355.html#msg16355 discussion forum] by Amir Harrak, a well published expert of Syriac studies, he also mentioned that this connection is confirmed beyond any doubt.

...that is also not relevant, and this inscription has yet to be studied by people without partisan views, but it changes nothing. And still no consideration of Dr Joseph book...but an inscription and a Yod?

:I suggest again that you create a criticism section in the [[Assyrian continuity]] article instead of spamming this discussion with irrelevant stuff. And please keep your political and religious views for yourself, Wikipedia is not the place to discuss them.--<span style="font-size: 14px; text-shadow: grey 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;">'''[[user:Rafy|<font

...that is exactly my complaint about this article, the end of it at least. The Christian religion is ALL OVER the place...as far as political views, I don't see any in Dr Joseph's book or in the quotes I have shown here. I did not come here to discuss my views, but to share Dr Joseph's research and writing...and I thought that was the whole point: to bring recognized sources, the best available...and I have...and yet you refuse to do any more but find two errors.

..I would appreciate your comments, not on my comments, but on the substance of the totality of Dr Joseph's work...and I would appreciate it if you would cite your sources, tell us their standing in the field, and provide some excerpts, or summary. I am not giving you my opinion...I am giving you a recognized historians research and conclusions. I think before dismissing him you need to find some professionals of equal standing, don't you?



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