Posted by Julia from graendal.at.northwestern.edu (220.127.116.11) on Friday, May 24, 2002 at 11:35AM :
In Reply to: Re: Lules posted by Jeff from LTU-207-73-69-80.LTU.EDU (18.104.22.168) on Friday, May 24, 2002 at 10:11AM :
(jeff)You could replace the word "sin" with "wrong" above and the same would be true. Why even use the word sin?
==> "Right" and "wrong" are subjective human definitions that can vary from person to person. What is "right" to someone may very well be "wrong" to another person. When I invoke the word "sin," which in some cases is synonymous with "wrong," I mean it in the Biblical sense as I understand it. If i accept the word of God in the form of the Bible, I accept *its* set of definitions for what is sinful or not sinful ("right" or "wrong" ). Therefore I derive my morality more from the bible and less from my subjective experiences which would allow me to fashion a "right" or "wrong." That's why I used the word sin.
(jeff) I didn't mean it like THAT. Gosh. My mind is a simple one -- I can't help but to oversimplify sometimes.
====> If I am not mistaken jeff you wrote:
"Christians on the other hand seem to just kill, and sin sin sin and then repent, repent, repent!"
But the power of cut and paste does not make you look like an Anti Christian. I know that you weren't *trying* to oversimplify, and I have the sense that you really don't hate anyone, including Christians. But that's because I feel like I know you personally. Based on those words alone, you don't look very different from the Assyrian Christians who would construct the same sentence but swap "Christian" for "Muslim."
(jeff) I do not hold prejudicial feelings towards Christians. What you interpreted from my post was in the contect of the word "sin". Most of my family and friends are Christians... how could that be if I hated them all?
====> And i'm glad that's the case. I hope i cleared up why I picked that word in the previous post. I also hope you understand that the word "haram" is also in some ways synonymous with "sin," or "wrong," but again that word is rooted in God's definition of sin as it is expressed in the Qu'ran. And when people invoke that word, they invoke with it a specific set of definitions based on what's written in their holy book.
(jeff) The idea that I, and I believe Stella, have here is that the ideals of Christianity, or any religion are fine and great, but when they are twisted, corrupted, and misinterpreted by man... we all lose. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
====> I absolutely agree with you!! I know Lilly disagrees with this idea, but I do believe that man, more or less, is driven by his sinful nature. Man competes for land and resources, fights to maintain identity (ethnic or cultural, group or individual); struggles for power and prestige. Throughout history conflicts ensued because of some kind of struggle or conflict of interests that parties could not resolve without force, even if the payoffs for peaceful resolution were high. Because of these tendencies, i believe man has a sinful nature and in some situations will invoke extreme nationalism (like fascism), religion (like in the crusades), struggle for land (like Napoleanic wars), economic oppression (like bolsheviks and kulaks in russia), gender differences (like Afghan women by taliban)...and so on and so forth.
Finally, I believe that most conflicts are NEVER fought for one reason or another. I believe it is usually a combination of factors that drives wars or conflicts, with different factors having differing weights. I think it is an oversimplification to assume that a conflict, ANY conflict, is driven SOLEY by one factor. Take hamas for instance. While some may see Hamas as an Islamist group, OBL et al sees them as heretical in the sense that they are fighting for the physical state of palestine, and NOT for the islamic state that is without borders and without the sacrilegious apparatus of the state. To many Hamas and OBL are in the same Islamic fundamentalist camp, but when you peer closer you'll see that they have very different goals, because different interests are factored in. However, both rely heavily on what they believe to be Qu'ranic verses guiding their mission - which is an example of using the beauty and ideals of Islam twisted to fit some political or quasi-religious agenda.
I think ultimately we agree :) especially on the fact that the ideals of religion, like other sets of ideals, are twisted and manipulated to fit the agenda of a person/group maximizing their self interest.
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