Posted by panch from pool0237.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (18.104.22.168) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 at 11:14AM :
In Reply to: Re: Evil Islam posted by Julia from boston15.erols.com (22.214.171.124) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 at 10:29AM :
: for those of you who believe the holocaust was about theology, you have a skewed perception of why millions of people died. of course fred colors the world with one sweeping stroke, and does this to paint millions as as villains, only to later say that he's not villanizing anyone but simply voicing his opinion. he doesn't hate anyone because he had a black lesbian jewish friend...
+++What are you TALKING about??? I'm saying ...oh never mind!
: i doubt fred has searing hate for anyone
+++Don't be too sure...you'd look pretty good in a frying pan, a sprig of parsley out your butt right about now. NO...I do NOT want to have a fling with you EITHER!!! Not you, not Alli, nor Lilly either. Don't give yourselves airs.
, and I am sure that his friends would say that he's a fun guy to be around and not this scating hater of fill-in-the-blank. but my god does he distort almost every historical experience he writes about.
+++What did I distort you nit...read something else one of these days. I said Christians in Turkey paid a heavy price because outside Christians used their common religion as a political device to achieve Imperial goals and left us all to catch hell for it...you never heard that before???
Since when was the holocaust about religious theological debate?
++++WHAT??? Since the beginning when Christians blamed Jews for killing Christ. Once someone singles you out for your religious views, even though you look and feel exactly like he does...and is willing to pluck your eyes out....that's religious intolerance...and when it's used as the pretext to steal your house...that's religious intolerance and theft...and when they have to rape and kill you...that becomes religious intolerance, theft, rape and murder. All of these are things they might have wanted to do anyway...but it soothes their conscience if they believe their god sanctioned it and they DO believe that...that's the really main function religion serves. The difference between us all amounts to a hill of a beans...yet we kill people who pray from the left instead of the right...that isn't murderous theology at work??? Are you nuts or just ashamed?
it was about a eugenics movement, it was about the building of the Aryan race, it was about building economic and political solidarity around a national identity in a time after extreme economic depression; it was about oppressing the communists, gays, and anyone who did not fit the Aryan agenda.
++++Watch it now. Persians are Aryans...Hitler's notion of what an Aryan is was...well, it was his own. That was all a part of it...but he did say..and for centuries the popes and church fathers DID say that Jews killed Christ therefore you could steal their property, their virginity, their chastity and their lives too...this is understandably upsetting to you and you'd like desperately to have it not have been so...to blame something else, anything else...but there you have it...if the cross fits, get nailed to it.
: to say that religion was not a part of the reason why millions of jews were killed is stupid.
+++Couldn't have said it better myself.
Of course jews suffered from persecution and anti semitism in a very Christian europe. But that is very different from saying the whole mass murder fo millions revolved around the deity of Christ.
++++It is? If the followers of a deity whose dumb fuck of a father insisted his son HAD to be murdered...are to follow their dread Lord's example...then they would find killing to be a certified problem solver and all round useful thing.
++++If the Jews had not been charged with killing Christ...there certainly would have still been wars...as Christians gleefully slaughtered each other for centuries and managed to find ample evidence that the same god approved of their murdering his same people...no wonder you guys are nuts...you go crazy trying to reconcile these absurdities...gets you cross-eyed and probably frigid too.
+++But it surely helps you murder...excuses it ...allows you to really swing that club if you believe you are doing God's work and for most of our existence as Christians we have indeed believed that we are doing god's work when we kill god's enemies. As this country now feels. Where did you grow up?
: WWI and WWII if you want to use fred's vocabulary was a bunch of christian on christian violence - but that doesn't make much sense, right? since chrsitians collectively hate non christians?
+++Huh? Wars are violence period...the excuses for it and the races and religions of the people only matter for propaganda purposes and to cleanse people of the blood guilt they feel.
I know fred knows that WWI and WWI and that era of history was not about religion alone; it was about ethnic and national identity, it was about the communist movement, it was about geographic dominance and supremacy;
++++It can be about all those things and more...my point was that religion is often used as cloak, a mask and a cover...it also allows people to committ unspeakable atrocities and insidious betrayals and deals because they feel they have divine sanction for it...that God is on their side. I don't excuse the Muslims any more than I do you Christians...but I wont blame one more than the other either.
but of course fred will subsume it all into a theological struggle about the divinity of Christ.
++++You're the ones who subsume the divinity of Christ. The notion that god chose to speak Hebrew to a bunch of pig farmers 2000 years ago, convincing them that his son was born in a stable and loaves turned into Cadillacs is your fantasy not mine...and believing this tripe just about excuses you and disqualifies you from civilized debate. if you came into our midst today spouting the divinity of a Jew carpenter you'd be thrown into a State Hospital for the incurable and crimminal Virginal.
: I can only say that Muslims are not evil people; Islam is not a relgion of evil; but I will say that radicals emerge within any group (religious, spiritual, national) and use religious text as propaganda for their overall mission.
: This is why you have an al qaeda,
+++Whoa...hold it right there. After a fine flourish about how all religions have extremists you choose a Muslim example??? Are you trying to say that Islam isn't evil inherently...but that islamic groups have spontaneously combusted from nowhere and have no reason to be pissed as hell at what Christian nations have been doing to them??? Are you serious? You would have done better to choose a radical extremist Christian terrorist organization like the United States Military which has been conducting more murder campaigns in Islamic lands in the last fifty years than any Muslim entity ever did in any Christian country.
+++If the United States gets to call on its god to bless their retaliation against a nation already in the Dark Ages...and you think that's fine...then why in any god's name aren't the Muslims justified in wanting THEIR revenge?
++++You started out sounding fair and rational...and wound up what you are...a Christian apologist. Nice smoke but I caught your arse hanging out in the mirror.
who is pursuing the development of an Islamic world that knows no borders...and a Hamas or Fatah movement, that wants not an Islamic state but a Palestinian state. Although both groups use the qu'ran to propel their movements...you can clearly see that a religious state and a political one are two very different things...because people pursue different agendas, and use religion to fit their agenda.
++++The United States is rapidly trying to join the religious nations...we too now feel that to have god at the table makes us a better more holy nation.
+++The United States, like you, is a hypocrite when it comes to religion. says so on their money.."IN God We Trust". We do? Then let him work his miracles on our behalf if he feels like it.
+++Praise the Lord...but pass the ballistic missles.
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