Posted by Julia from boston17.erols.com (220.127.116.11) on Friday, July 05, 2002 at 12:52PM :
In Reply to: Re: Evil Islam posted by panch from pool0237.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (18.104.22.168) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 at 11:14AM :
: +++What did I distort you nit...read something else one of these days. I said Christians in Turkey paid a heavy price because outside Christians used their common religion as a political device to achieve Imperial goals and left us all to catch hell for it...you never heard that before???
>>>No, i haven't heard that at all - seriously. i don't know what you're talking about there -
: ++++WHAT??? Since the beginning when Christians blamed Jews for killing Christ.
>> Any mildly educated Christian knows that it is inane and stupid to hate a Jew for "killing Christ" becaues Christ was supposed to die, that was part of the prophecy. Christ said that the temple would be destroyed and in three days would be rebuilt...to hate the "destroyer" of the temple, the Jews, is to hate a part of God's plan. It was easy to hate Jews throughout the years not primarily because of theological differences; the Jews were innovative, intelligent and prosperous people (and still are), and thus an easy guinea pig for a guy like Hitler to stir hate against them and in turn foment extreme nationalism. Oh and I heard this from Jews as well..so they are probably wrong and you're right?
Once someone singles you out for your religious views, even though you look and feel exactly like he does...and is willing to pluck your eyes out....that's religious intolerance...
>> Hell yeah it is. I agree. Christians were not very tolerant of people of other religions; heck, CHristians were not very tolerant of each other and killed each other off too (ahem, protestants and Catholics); so what's your point? People kill people all the time, and I'll use your words- they use religion as a guise for other motives - seeking power, wealth, dominance, etc....
Are you nuts or just ashamed?
>> You will probably think I'm nuts for saying this, but in my mind i see it this way: Christians killed Jews, Nazis killed jews, Fascists killed ______, Bolsheviks killed Mensheviks, the Northerners killed the Southerners and vice versa; British killed Americans and vice versa; Napolean killed Europeans....
I think people kill each other because they see themselves as different from others. My friend calls this the very essence of a subjective experience: we know who we are because we see people different from us. And from that subjective experience, from the moment we see people as being different than us...shit happens. We treat them rudely, we sexually harass them, we fight wars against them...it's the subjective experience that makes the "we-they" distinction or the "me-they" distinction. And i believe that faith in God, which makes people see that ALL of God's creation deserves love and respect, despite their difference from us, is what this world needs. We need that subjective experience to be ameliorated by the fact that God created all beings in this world, and every single human being deserves our love and respect not because we're such great folk but becaues God commands this of us.
: ++++Watch it now. Persians are Aryans...Hitler's notion of what an Aryan is was...well, it was his own. That was all a part of it...but he did say..and for centuries the popes and church fathers DID say that Jews killed Christ therefore you could steal their property, their virginity, their chastity and their lives too...
>>right, and the Church tithed their own people to poverty; they practiced nepotism and simony; they accumulated lands and power when their flock was starving. that Christian church is by far different from the Christian churches we read about in the bible - because people are corrupt, and use religion as a guise for their motives...
this is understandably upsetting to you and yu'd like desperately to have it not have been so...to blame something else, anything else...but there you have it...if the cross fits, get nailed to it.
>> that made zero sense. I want to look for patterns...to me it's not that meaningful to look at Christian on Christian or Christian on Heathen violence...it's to look at all kinds of violence and understand why the heck one person decides to kill another person.
: ++++If the Jews had not been charged with killing Christ...there certainly would have still been wars...as Christians gleefully slaughtered each other for centuries and managed to find ample evidence that the same god approved of their murdering his same people...
>> Yeah, i absolutely agree. Look at the Constitution and the bill of rights and the amendments..these static documents were interpreted and manipulated by people over time to mean different things...one day slavery is OK, the next day it isn't...one day only men can have the vote, then women can have it; one day separate but equal is the standard that allows segregation, but then we use the same document to argue that separate is not equal...
do you blame static documents or do you blame the people who interpret them and shape their meanings?
Where did you grow up?
In CHI TOWN. RAISE THE ROOF!
: +++Huh? Wars are violence period...the excuses for it and the races and religions of the people only matter for propaganda purposes and to cleanse people of the blood guilt they feel.
>>YEah! i agree with this too.
: ++++It can be about all those things and more...my point was that religion is often used as cloak, a mask and a cover...it also allows people to committ unspeakable atrocities and insidious betrayals and deals because they feel they have divine sanction for it...
>>> Yes, I agree. "Divine right of kings" - that was manipulated by monarchs to do as they pleased to their subservient constituency -
I don't excuse the Muslims any more than I do you Christians...but I wont blame one more than the other either.
>> Yep, i agree.
: ++++You're the ones who subsume the divinity of Christ. The notion that god chose to speak Hebrew to a bunch of pig farmers 2000 years ago, convincing them that his son was born in a stable and loaves turned into Cadillacs is your fantasy not mine...and believing this tripe just about excuses you and disqualifies you from civilized debate.
>> funny :) then why do you still debate with little ol' uncivilized me? :) does that make you uncivilized as well?
:: +++Whoa...hold it right there. After a fine flourish about how all religions have extremists you choose a Muslim example??? Are you trying to say that Islam isn't evil inherently...but that islamic groups have spontaneously combusted from nowhere and have no reason to be pissed as hell at what Christian nations have been doing to them???
>>Um, no, that was your reading of what I wrote. I didn't say that, nor try to say that.
>> I mentioned the Al Qaeda and Fatah example to point out that there are nuances between radicals...where one radical group is using religion to make a Palestinian state, another is using religion to make an Islamic state. Two different end goals...but both using the same religious text for their goals. That was my point, people use religion for their own ends.
: +++If the United States gets to call on its god to bless their retaliation against a nation already in the Dark Ages...and you think that's fine...then why in any god's name aren't the Muslims justified in wanting THEIR revenge?
>> I have no problem with the US going in to take out Al Qaeda/Taliban.
: +++The United States, like you, is a hypocrite when it comes to religion. says so on their money.."IN God We Trust". We do? Then let him work his miracles on our behalf if he feels like it.
>>> How am I a hypocrite? The point of believing in God is to approach his holiness, not become holy like him (because we can't), nor is it to let him work miracles and us in the sidelines. We're supposed to learn how to be better people, and learning involves trial and error....to learn is not to be programmed, or to let your instructor do everything for you. We need to learn to grow in God's word and be holy people - but that is not an end goal on this earth. In math they had this expression, x ---> infinity. I loved this because it didn't mean much: what is x approaching infinity? It simply meant x cannot equal infinity but is constantly moving towards a number greater than itself...and that is what most religious people, Muslims, bahai's , christians, would say - when we are religious we are pursuing GOd's perfection, but we'll never be perfection.
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