Posted by Stella from 12-248-16-41.client.attbi.com (220.127.116.11) on Friday, July 19, 2002 at 11:17PM :
In Reply to: Re: The reason why i'm asking is because.. posted by panch from pool0401.cvx25-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (18.104.22.168) on Friday, July 19, 2002 at 2:03PM :
: +++I get mad at people who tell me that the cruelty they want to practise anyway...is sanctioned and approved of and demanded and expected by ANY God.
***Fred, this is not true at all. No where in the New Testament that says God sanctions
human participation in murder and injustice.
: ++++There is no need to even have a god, unless....unless you feel the impulse to committ a heinous crime you know damn well IS a crime, so you need "divine" sanction to hide behind. No law mandates the killing of innocent children...only believing in God demands that sort of thing.
****Alright Fred, you're looking at religion in a very narrow way. You're completely disregarding the SPIRITUALITY of religion and belief in God. Religion is multidimensional. It isn't accurate to look at it through one lens and make a generalization about the whole.
: +++Funny how you profess ignorance and certainty in the same sentence...when it suits the paltry "point" you are about to make. You can see why children are no match, not only from priests who rape their bottoms, but their minds as well.
***You've read alot of Freud. Try Eliade next time.
: Christian people see humans as inherently sinful.
: +++Well then Fuck them...they ought to know. Just what is a "sin" anyway...besides getting caught doing what some prelate says you mustn't do. The Bible is a Jewish history book...no more and no less.
***Sin is a simple concept made complex. It's doing wrong. Like, killing your neighbor's sheep, making him unable to feed his family. Doing something to hurt others. In the Bible, sin is described in many different ways: as a reigning monarch in a closed cosmos (like Saul in the OT and Emperor Nero later on); as a free choice to break the covenant with God:as ignorant, non-malicious, off-target life choice; as interior, mean-spiritedness, crookedness of heart. When you really get down to it, it's common sense. I know what you're going to say next: "You can have common sense without a GOd who plays his cruel joke of a "divine will" on humanity by putting his innocent son to death on a cross." I don't know how to answer you on that one. I'm not a Christian apologist to even try. It's not enough to look at Christianity through the single angle you're looking at it through.
: That is the pattern and trend they see over time. Beginning with themselves, their families, their country and everyone they know..Christians see that humans are flawed because they have a tendency to hurt each other.
: +++Oh come on! Go sell your wares somewhere else. Who gives a good goddamn WHAT excuse Christians use to build up their empire with?
: Christians see that we need to be led by something greater than us, rather than our impulses and desires, since those desires hurt others.
: +++Led by the nose you mean. The neatest trick you guys came up with is committing every disgraceful and disgusting thing everfyone else does...then coming up with the "flawed" vessel of God bullshit so you can commence the same buisness in between confessions. You all should be ashamed of yourselves...not because you're any worse than the worst of us...but because you found a way you THINK gives you an "out". Starting with the fact that you wont take responsibility for your own crimes but go hang them all around the neck of an Innocent and kill HIM, then brag about it!!!
: : And yes, when Jesus was around there were wars, people did die, and sin was sin just as it is now. Humans demonstrate a nature that is constant over time.
: ++++No they don't. Once we got your friggin church off our backs and put an end to the Dark Ages, people were allowed to bathe and examine the cause of disease and question religious wars. people have decidedly improved without the fingers of these churches all over our body politic. It is YOU who are still impressed with what was 'revealed" to pig farmers and shephards and fishermen 2000 years ago. How do you expect to get out of that mind set if you don't first break with the same traditions that taught people then about devils and the proper way to clean wounds...with camel piss?
: : I remember I had a friend who didn't believe in atoms. I asked her why. She said that she's never seen an atom, and frankly she doesn't believe everything she hears or sees.
: ++++Oh for heaven's sake...how old are you? What atom ever comanded people to kill in it's name? Next thing you're going to tell me about the watch found in the forest...well gee whiz...where is the WATCHMAKER! See...how an otherwise intelligent, and for all we know, lusty and bawdy wench can be turned into an eunuch?
: : We don't know much about anything, but we have evidence suggesting some kind of reality. You can walk around in the world and not believe in atoms because you've not seen them..or you can try to pick up a book about atoms, read why people believe in atoms, and evaluate it from there.
: ++++Or you can just stay blissfully stoopid.
: +++"Atoms".....jeezus h. cheeerist!!!
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