The Inside Assyria Discussion Forum #5

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Posted by pancho (Guest) - Tuesday, July 17 2007, 6:53:52 (CEST)
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So tell me Fred, How does an Assyrian like yourself, born to an honorable and noble family who fled the Genocide of the Assyrians/Armenians/Greeks in WWI,

..it was not a genocide...there was no systematic attempt made to kill an entire people..the Christians of Istanbul and others were not touched...genocide is what Christians did to the Jews and are doing now to all Muslims, regardles of whether or not they or their countries did anything to anyone...starving to death 700,000 Iraqi babies IS genocide and it was Christians who did that.

...The Ottomans had every reason to fear the Western Christian nations..and as those nations were sending missionaries, missionaries who never even bothered to ask permission to enter the Sultan's lands and who made no secret that they were coming to convert and "save" heaten Muslims, or that they planned to use the Christians there, with their great "Apostolic traditions", to do their dirty work...it is, therefore, no surprise or shock that the Turks wanted to get Christians away from the wilder border regions such as Hakkari...which is exactly where the English and Russians DID enter and ravage the Ottoman lands and Muslim citizens...read some real BOOKS for a change.

Furthermore my Grandafther was among the many Assyrians who told the idiots who brought us Semele NOT to trust the British or Euros again...especially not since they'd lied to us just a few years earlier...he was not in favor of this triangle bullshit but said we are now citizen of Iraq etc...

...but. when that band of men took up weapons, at Marshimun's instigation, in a country still reeling from the effects of war and dismemberment and British occupation, and went crossing borders as they pleased, well...they angered the Iraqis, who had every right to feel these Christians of Turkey were being damned ungratefull...after all, the Christians who took up arms against their own countrymen in Hakkari, like Agha Poutrous, could have expected nothing less than to be unwelcome..of COURSE they seized their lands..never wanted to see the skunks again.

Get your facts straight...there was no genocide of "Assyrians"...there was retaliation for the ACTS of some Christians which, unfortunately as these things go, caused suffering for many innocent people..as ALL the people of Iraq are suffering for the actions of nineteen individuals, not a one of whom was Iraqi.

turn out to be a Self-Hating, Self-Denouncing, Bitter person with nothing but Hate, Anger and Shame for his own Race?

..you are NOT my "race"...you are NOT Assyrians. You are Christian sects who've been fighting each other for over 1300 years. I am not Christian...nor Muslim nor Jew.

You call EVERYONE a hypocrite, and Phony Assyrian Cowards and make a mockery of people who only mean well,

...the path to hell is paved with good intentions...I'm not interested in your intentions...but in the results of said intentions..and so far the results have been disasterous...except that you blame the Muslims for it all when it was and is Christians who started this war against a country that never did anything to America..north or south.

but you portray yourself as a Shock-Jock-Style writer on Assyrian forums who's only reason for being so negative and rude is to "Weed out Wimps" of the Assyrian nation!

...no, I said I'm looking for signs of intelligence...and find precious little...you, at least, are willing to make the effort to reply...but that's about it. Your intentions may be good, but your facts and knowledge are way off...starting with "genocide"..."race" and "nation"...not to mention "Assyrian".

You speak of democracy and history as if YOU wrote them yourself, but at the same time, TOTALLY IGNORANT of REAL historical facts!

..name them. Is it Christian nations attacking Iraq or not?

You stick up for Muslims as if they've done NOTHING WRONG throughout history, and that THEY were/are the victims of "CHRISTIAN AGRESSION" all along!

...not at all. They have behaved pretty much as people will...except it is not THEY who brought this war...and it was not THEM who murdered six million Jews, and got stuck at the end of that war with a few still alive, which they then proceeded to pit against Muslims in Palestine..when all the world knows that historically it was Christians who hated and murdered Jews and it was Muslims among whom the Jews lived in greater security..or that it was Turkey, the Ottoman Empire which was the ONLY entity to ever give religious freedom to Christians and Jews..allowing them to be ruled by their own patriarchs and religious laws and tribal customs....

...remember that the Christians of Europe were murdering each other for centuries and no one, NO ONE, has killed more Christians than Christians themselves...and, finally, the fact that Christianity has survived in Muslim lands since the Conquest, right up to today, is proof enough that Muslims welcome Christians until...until some fools among them start talking about what is OWED them and what Arabs "took" from them...and calling on foreign Christian nations to attack Iraq and "save" them...well, do you think the Christians of Iraq have been saved enough?

Do you know what happened to Assyrians in Assyria during the Mongol invasion? They Butchered us, burned our books, and took our women!

....that has happened to EVERYONE! Do you know what Christians did to Vietnam? Do you know what they are doing to Iraq...do you know what they did to Jews in the Second World War? Why are you so PROUD of your so-called losses...losses that have been suffered by every nation and group of people since the world began..and you bring up the THIRTEENTH CENTURY????

The Arab invasion into Assyria?,

..it was not Assyria by that time.

They also Butchered us, with the exception of those who chose to pay the Jizya,

..they did not. Bring some evidence for this and NOT from Syriac manuscripts...those are a joke. The choice Muslims gave others was the tax, conversion OR the sword....and the jizya tax was mild.,...and only men of fighting age, not widows, orphans, the young or old or crippled or poor had to pay..it was far less than what bishops were squeezing from their sheep....you have been taught this nonsense as "history" by your Christian madrassahs...and they have lied to you...go read a real history book...or several.

(What they're forcing us to do now, when they're not beheading us), or were forced to Convert, in the end becoming ARABIZED!..

...that is more nonsense...they are not. There are Christian churches and have been till today...besides which you all LOVE to be Americanized. The ones being killed are being killed because they collaborate with the enemy...besides which Americans starved to death 700,000 Iraqi babies under the age of five...that number included at least 30,000 Assyrian Christian babies...yet you have NEVER mentioned this heinous crime...

...beheading is quick and it's over with...for mothers and fathers to have to listen to their babies crying from hunger or from the effects of easily preventible diseases, ones which were easily treated by Iraq, which had the BEST medical care of those countries and in many ways better than people have in America because it was for everyone...imagine watching your child slowly waste away...crying and crying for food or medicine...that was a POLICY of the United States, not Arabs...

...Madeliene Albright, Clinton's Secretary of State was asked at a news conference if she knew 5000 Iraqi babies were dying a MONTH and had been for 13 years...and what she thought of that tragedy...her reply was that it was an "acceptable policy"...meaning of the United States GOVERNMENT...tell me when, in the modern era, any Muslim nation or person has said or done such a thing?

There's no doubt that Christians have done ALOT of damage throughout history, and they are now aswell, but this forum and all other ASSYRIAN forums are about the preservation of our people's existance, identity and culture.

...you are NOT Assyrians. Your saying you are, because you heard your parents and priests tell you, is no "proof"...

The first time I saw your sculpture of AshurBanipal in SanFrancisco (1997), I was Amazed at the detail and beautiful work put into it, and was so proud and happy to know that Great Assyrian artists Still Exist!

...yes, I FEEL the Assyrian heritage strongly..but I know damn well and always did, that I was not any kind of direct descendant of the ancients..that is absurd and downright foolish...and I also feel the same pride for the Babylonian, Chaldean, Hurrian, Hittite...ALL the great cultures that made that place a Cradle...not a grave, as the Christians have been making of it...and that includes the glorious Islamic Empire centered in BetNahrain....

...it is ALL "my" Heritage and all equally dear and precious...what you are talking about are Christian sects..each of them hating the other and Muslims, who latched onto this notion that they were direct descendants etc...it is a terrible bit of foolishness that has caused no end of misery and still is...because you look to the Christian West to come and "save" you...and that focus has always resulted in tragedy for all the people there...as it is again today and will continue to do so as long as you spout this nonsense about being Assyrians because you are CHRISTIANS!

When I heard of the statue of Shamiram being donated "By you" to Chicago, I was so Excited and anxious to see Great Assyrian art in Chicago, then I was equally dissapointed when I realized it was declined by our Senator John Nimroud, I still don't know why!

..it was not donated by me..but by the community. I've explained too many times why and how Nimrod did it...but I will tell you this, I am in the process of adressing the Arts Committee of San Francisco, telling them that further research, research which I should have conducted earlier, has taught me better and that I want to amend the history of the Ashurbanipal Monument I wrote for their public library as well as to strike out from the statue ANY reference to the modern "Assyrians" being in any direct way linked to the ancient Assyrians...I will apologize, cite my new sources..encourage them to look into the matter...and ask for permission to wipe those embarrassing lines off the pedestal of the monument...I've already done that with the monument of Shumirum, which will be going up this year in another California city with NO mention of any linkage to modern day Nestorians and other Christians of Iraq..it was an honest mistake...but a mistake that needs to be corrected...

....we have to set the record straight...it's the least I can do to begin to break the clanking chain placed around the necks of the Nestorian and other Christians of Iraq...among whom there are always enough unscrupulous people looking for a fast buck and cheap glory as they envision themselves Ambassadors and entrepreneurs of ASSYRIA...when all they have done is bring death and destruction to IRAQI citizens of the Christian faith...who, because of this nonsense have been encouraged to see themselves as the "indigenous" people of "Assyria" whose lands were "stolen" and who have a "right" to "their" lands back. This myth has to be destroyed once and for all...for the good of all of BetNahrain, modern day Iraq...or Kurdistan now that you Christians have had your way.

So I ask you this:

Have you Turned on your own Assyrian Nation

..it is not a nation...use a dictionary some time.

just because of a few Assyrian individuals who've pissed you off before, or is it something much deeper?

...let me just say that it's a good, but ultimately trivial question...because I didn't "turn"...I READ and THOUGHT about it! I still have all my love and admiration for the Assyrian, not the Christian, heritage...I think Christianity was a disaster to those people and I don't believe for a minute that any Assyrian turned Christian...not willingly.

We know Christians killed pagans and others who refused baptism..plenty of Christian historians have written of it...we know of NO incident, not reported by a church, in which Muslims forcibly converted Christians...or killed them JUST because of their religion..if you have such evidence, bring it...but remeber, NOT from any church source..those people are liars..they do it "for god"..but it's lying all the same. I don't believe people who have Shrouds of Turin or believe they will live on a cloud when they die.

My second question:

If EVERTHING EVERYONE here suggests is such a stupid idea, and is worth mockery, than being the highly intelligent and smart person that you are, and without answering in your TYPICAL smartass way, Honestly, what is the solution for preserving Assyrians and if possibly, an idependant Assyria, that we may all one day call home?
.
..there is no such thing as an "Assyria"...there is no Gaul any longer..it is France...there is no Albion...it is England..and Rome today is not ROME. Get over it. When you say preserving "Assyrians" all you are really talking about is preserving a Christian presence..YOUR particular Christian presence in Iraq and elsewhere among Muslims...Muslims who have every good reason to despise Christian nations...more so now than ever and growing daily, but who yet, miraculously, blame only the policies of Christian nations and not the people or cultures.

You will NEVER get a Triangle or Enclave...not by begging and crying. You can steal anyone's country and call it your own..that's what Europeans did in the New World...BUT, you have to be able to take it and then KEEP it...and it will be LEGAL...in fact it is the ONLY way to get a country, or part of one...International Law is still the law of the jungle...everyone else knows it if you don't.

Of course you can wait on Isaiah to get it for you.

It is this notion exactly, the idea of "what can we do to get our homeland" that has caused and is causing all this grief..not to YOU, though you cry the loudest over it, but to the Christian people in IRAQ who want nothing more than to live in peace with their Muslim neigbors, brothers and sisters... which they were doing just fine till Christians invaded their country, making them suspect in the eyes of their countrymen and women, especially as you ALL said you were coming to "save them".

Your "strategy" has been to cry loud, to feed into America and Europe's greed, bigotry and hatred of Islam as a way of justifying and reaffirming your claim that you are being "TORTURED" by Arabs and "always have been"!!! It is dishonest...it is despicable..it is a lie...but you see it as the one way in which you can "get" something...by arousing the pity of the world...you are forcing people to become pathetic, to make martyrs of themselves..all in the service of your CHURCHES and SECTS and not for the "Assyrian Heritage".

Just for once, leave Sarcasm out.

...you didn't...why should I?

Alen Barsin

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