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Posted by Sadie from D007005.N1.Vanderbilt.Edu ( on Thursday, January 16, 2003 at 6:47PM :

In Reply to: Re: ahem posted by pancho from ( on Thursday, January 16, 2003 at 5:59PM :

: : Oh, OK - what was ancient Greece like, then?

: +++It was like ancient Greece.

: Or ancient Rome

: +++It was remarkably like ancient Rome.

: ? Or ancient China?

: +++Well, the really odd thing is that ancient China was a lot like ancient China. I'm confused.

: Or even you could contemplate the way women are treated in India today?

: +++Okay...let's contemplate that.

: etc., etc. Those were/are NOT Christian societies - BUT they were/are patriarchal.

: ++++When THEIR priests get caught fucking children we'll discuss them. As far as I know, none of them claimed to have the exclusive ear of god...or spoke for him, or got tax breaks! It doesn't matter the religion...what DOES matter is the tradition and the institutions and the longevity of that religion. China and India are countries...not religions...Greece and Rome were also countries and they no longer exist.

xxx When their kings & rulers get caught doing those things to women & children that any corrupt religious leader does, Catholic or not, ONLY then would you believe me, it seems. ONLY with the ancient cultures, you can't go back & punish anyone - though the practices of men sleeping with boys (because sleeping with another man, of whatever age, was supposed to be a more sacred union than a heterosexual union) & ancient Greek men treating women as second class citizens are mentioned as far back as Aristotle (in European history); that in ancient Chinese culture, women had NO say, even in their own homes & were taken at a young age to be brides is well known; & that even in modern India the practice of obtaining child brides is well documented. SO, religion doesn't matter. And slapping a ceremony on top of it all sounds to me like it's some sort of social institution that HAS to be respected, just like the word of any Christian priest HAS to be respected. If they aren't/weren't sanctioned by a holy man, then misogyny & pedophilia are/were sanctioned by whoever claims/claimed authority (king, parents, etc.), & then, as a consequence, by society as a whole.

xxx The importance given to religion is determined by the society in which one lives, esp. by one's immediate environment (family, friends, etc.). BUT, ultimately, it is *society*, one's culture, that allows (or doesn't allow) such activities to occur. & it so happens that patriarchal societies are HIGHLY prone to misogynist practices, & some even prone to pedophiliac practices, as well (if one counts the molestation of either girls or boys to be pedophiliac).

-- Sadie
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