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Posted by andreas from ( on Saturday, December 14, 2002 at 1:44PM :

In Reply to: For Lilly, Mr Confusius ... posted by andreas from ( on Saturday, December 14, 2002 at 11:39AM :

You Feminine? - Me, Feline ...

But sorry, Lilly, was a typo.
Didn't want ot hurt you.


: xxx No, it's fueled by a people's longing to know their own history as they ought to know it... You DID insinuate that the Israelites were "progressive" & that the cultures they left-behind were not progressive & unimportant for "human development".

+++ Nonsense. I spoke of a new evolution which the Jews started in human history.
The elements of the old Mesopotamina culture were not fit for this. And also not the old Germanic culture (just still to be born at the time)

: That's what I mean by "bashing". How else am I supposed to read that statement? See below.
: ### Let it put me this way ...:
: The People to become known later as Jews left Mesopotamia because there was no chance anymoe for human development - at least not for prgression of the most important future-oriented part.

+++ Reminding of fachts and appealing to your for respecting facts in modesty is not bashing.
You sound like a little child screaming cause it hasn't got its way and now feels - bashed.

+++ Read to the end & stay focussed...
Always anong those lines:
"Sure WE all are humans. But that's a banality and not a free ticket to usurp and claim everybody and everything only according to you whimsical likings fuelled by self-serving national pride. "

: However, where the hades did the Israelites come from? A space ship?

+++ I commented on the very clearly in my last 2 messages and I don't waant to follow you in your silly ideas.
Read my messages to the very end.
You didn't even get the basic idea.
Overwhelmed by your Famous "Assyrian "emotions"?
Learn mental discipline!

: : === Among today's Assyrians there is total confusion of concepts and words:
: Ancient Assyrians were NOT Babylonians (despite of all mutual contacts).

xxx The rulers & empires changed, but the people didn't just die off or run away - they stayed on the same land.

+++ Yes, the pople as they were then and how they intermingled and changed in their interactions.
This means, all the people concequered by Assyrians.
They majority of population of the Assyrian empire was not made of Assyrians (so-called old citizens) but constisted of Arameans who gave you their language (on a tiny original lexical substratum), Hurrians whose language influenced your grammar till today , Babylonians etc etc - you know the whole list.

+++ Your basic flawed and basically flawed proposition is that the populace was "Assyrian".
Ethnicities: suppled by the (temporarily) subjugated peoples
Culture: from Babylon/Sumer
Imperial structure and monarchy (incl. the aristocracy): Assyrian

Now take the imperial structure and the ruling clique away - which was the result of the destruction of the Assyrian empire and the alledgedly "unexplainable" "vanishing" of a people.
No, it is not unexplainable: There was not geunie substance, no genuine culture, no crucial ethnic substance any more: a VACUUM.

+++ What's left: People/peoples. what are they? See above: partly amalgated subjugated peoples.
You are right: "people didn't just die off or run away - they stayed on the same land": THOSE PEOPLES STAYED - NOT ASSYRIANS.
To call them Assyrians is a wilful re-definition and concoction. See my earler message.

: I pretty much regard the Old Testament as beginning w/ a perversion of the older Babylonian stories

+++ I see no evidence whatsoever for this.
Jews/Israelites and their spiritual leaders turned to spiritual sources which are accessed in different ways, varying form culture to culture.
Nobody needs the Babylonians for this.
Furthermore: the composition of the flood story is totally different with the Jewish one much more clearer and more original and the Babylonian one which is of an "elaboration" being typical of a later date.
Coincidences between the both and not between the Jewish and any of the other ca. 600-700 flood stories the world over is due to the common ancestry of Semitic people and their shared approach.
I personally regard the similaritiy between the Babylonion and the Jewish version much exaggerated, in your case, to serve a nationalist daydream.

:: The choice of this overstretched newly definied term "Assyrians" in the wake of a nationalist movement is fulled by political motives and not by historical facts.

xxx No, it's fueled by a people's longing to know their own history as they ought to know it...

+++ That IS a joke. That "Assyrian" people is lack of care of serious search, lackof inteligent and scientific questioning, wrenching and bending and drifting and mangling anything within their reach to CONCOCT a nationalistic mythology. Without any trace of seriousness and love for the truth and mental discipline, only in order to satisfy their voracious emotional appetite like a baby - but not as real decendents of their much pretended ancient cultures and not in a mature and responsible way.

-- andreas
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